10-20 NLH -- Min raise followed by a check min raise?

[Rococo]

3 handed

I have only been at the table for about 20 hands. I have never played with these players before, so I don't have much of a read. Based on this tiny sample, play seems tight, but it could be the cards. Effective stack sizes are approximately $2000.

Preflop

I make it $75 to go on the Button with red aces. SB folds and BB minraises to $150. I call. I three bet here a lot of the time but not always. No real reason why I chose to call here other than the fact that I had position.

Flop

K /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Villain checks. I bet $260. Villain min-check raises to $520. By this point, I obviously was wishing that I had three bet before the flop, but I didn't, so now what?

Min-check-raise on the flop is usually a bluff / sign of weakness. I would go ahead and call the bet, then since you have position on him, let him bet into you, and raise him on the turn. If you are more on the conservative side, go ahead and call him down. But I prefer raising rather than calling. Also your hand seems hidden here, so he may think his KQ or KJ or even JJ is probably good here.

Here's raising you for information when it's cheap. Remember, always raise the flop for information when it's cheap.

[outdrwn]

Yeah this looks a lot like KQ, maybe AK if he's really unlucky. I'd 3 bet here, see if he's serious. A reraise before the flop looks mostly like a pair of kings. I like rabbot's response, but I think a call/ Pot sized raise on the turn would be the best option, if he "3 bets" you on the turn, I would probably concede defeat unless you had a sign on the contrary, but nevertheless this is a safe flop and you can win a lot of money from KQ by calling here and raising the turn. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[lapoker17]

Only a complete dipshit (or a really good player who also knows you have aces) is minraising that benign flop w KKK (or 888 for that matter), do whatever you can to string him along.

[Rococo]

[ QUOTE ]
3 handed

I have only been at the table for about 20 hands. I have never played with these players before, so I don't have much of a read. Based on this tiny sample, play seems tight, but it could be the cards. Effective stack sizes are approximately $2000.

Preflop

I make it $75 to go on the Button with red aces. SB folds and BB minraises to $150. I call. I three bet here a lot of the time but not always. No real reason why I chose to call here other than the fact that I had position.

Flop

K /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Villain checks. I bet $260. Villain min-check raises to $520. By this point, I obviously was wishing that I had three bet before the flop, but I didn't, so now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I call the flop for essentially the reasons Lapoker suggested. Villain open pushes a brick turn for another $1350. Easy call?

[lapoker17]

Yeah - You see Ak, KQ and even crap like QQ and JJ here too often to fold. If he got you he got you. You played it right.

[ObnxNole]

Put the rest in. If he has a set then so be it.

[Rococo]

[ QUOTE ]
Only a complete dipshit (or a really good player who also knows you have aces) is minraising that benign flop w KKK (or 888 for that matter), do whatever you can to string him along.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, LA. He showed me a bizarrely played 88 and the river bricked. Preflop was what screwed me up. I couldn't imagine that he minraise preflop with a middle pair OOP. His flop play turned out to be very effective given my holding. If he was good enough to put me squarely on AA (or AK) after I bet the flop, and good enough to know that I would perceive a check minraise as weak, then I give him credit.

[lapoker17]

ugh - he just got lucky - the planets were aligned. play with him more.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
Min-check-raise on the flop is usually a bluff / sign of weakness. I would go ahead and call the bet, then since you have position on him, let him bet into you, and raise him on the turn. If you are more on the conservative side, go ahead and call him down. But I prefer raising rather than calling. Also your hand seems hidden here, so he may think his KQ or KJ or even JJ is probably good here.

Here's raising you for information when it's cheap. Remember, always raise the flop for information when it's cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrible advice. A min check raise in a raised pot is NOT a bluff or sign of weakness. A min check raise in a raised pot is almost always a set.

Why would anyone min check raise in a raised pot as a bluff? He knows full well that youre not going to fold for $250 in a $1050 pot with that preflop action. Hes building the pot with a monster. If he was bluffing, he would check raise much more so that you might fold. A bluff with no folding equity is ridiculous.

I agree; read SS, even Brunson would pay this man off LOL

[Rococo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Min-check-raise on the flop is usually a bluff / sign of weakness. I would go ahead and call the bet, then since you have position on him, let him bet into you, and raise him on the turn. If you are more on the conservative side, go ahead and call him down. But I prefer raising rather than calling. Also your hand seems hidden here, so he may think his KQ or KJ or even JJ is probably good here.

Here's raising you for information when it's cheap. Remember, always raise the flop for information when it's cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrible advice. A min check raise in a raised pot is NOT a bluff or sign of weakness. A min check raise in a raised pot is almost always a set.

Why would anyone min check raise in a raised pot as a bluff? He knows full well that youre not going to fold for $250 in a $1050 pot with that preflop action. Hes building the pot with a monster. If he was bluffing, he would check raise much more so that you might fold. A bluff with no folding equity is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ice,

Given the preflop action, I take it you are putting him on KK. Are you certain enough to fold the flop?

[hit_the_set]

[ QUOTE ]
A min check raise in a raised pot is NOT a bluff or sign of weakness. A min check raise in a raised pot is almost always a set.


[/ QUOTE ]

[iceman5]

I already know what he had so my analysis doesnt hold much water, but when i read the hand (before reading the results) I thought he had KK.

Reraising preflop usually narrows the hand posibilities down. Reraising the minimum preflop usually narrows it even further to AA / KK. Of course he didnt have AA/ KK this time, but when you add the preflop action to the flop action, hes going to have you beat almost every time.

Now, could I fold it knowing all this? It would be very very tough, but Ive played enough hands just like this one to know that folding is correct. And Ive played for a full stack here and lost enough times to wish I had folded.

I wouldve prevented it though. Not 3 betting with AA preflop is fine, but when you raise and get min reraised, he will have KK a large mayority of the time, so I wouldve probably pushed in preflop. You will get called alot of the time, and you wont have to second guess yourself when the flop is really ugly...like KK8 or QJT or something like that.