Who would you expect to be more moral - an Atheist or a Theist?

[bocablkr]

This may seem like a simple question but it is not. An Atheist believes that when he dies life is over. His existence is over - period. Therefore, he must make the most of his time here on earth. If he commits a serious crime and spends the rest of his life in prison he is screwed. His time on this planet is finite - why spend it in prison.

A Theist (if he believes in heaven and hell) is taught to be moral or else face eternal damnation. You would think this would make him more moral. But there is a caveat - if he accepts Jesus as his savior (Christian religion) then no matter what he did wrong in his life he can still go to heaven. Now I ask you - if I had a 'get out of jail free card' wouldn't I be more likely to be immoral than if I knew that my life is finite and should not be wasted in prison?

[mackthefork]

What do you mean by moral? If you mean who will treat other people more fairly and reasonably, and behave towards others as they would have others behave towards them, then it's the Atheist and it's not close.

Mack

[Jacob_Gilliam]

Again, depending on what your definition of morality is, I think there's really no difference between the two groups. One's religious beliefs and morality have nothing to do with each other. There are many christians who spend thier lives trying to help others, and there are many who are completely immoral. Same with athiests.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you mean by moral? If you mean who will treat other people more fairly and reasonably, and behave towards others as they would have others behave towards them, then it's the Atheist and it's not close.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

A completely subjective answer to a completely subjective question. Good job.

[bocablkr]

[ QUOTE ]
Again, depending on what your definition of morality is, I think there's really no difference between the two groups. One's religious beliefs and morality have nothing to do with each other. There are many christians who spend thier lives trying to help others, and there are many who are completely immoral. Same with athiests.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you read through many of the threads here there is often the supposition by the Theists that an Atheist can't be moral because he does not have an absolute reference point (god). They believe right and wrong comes from god and man can't determine that by himself. Obviously, from the poll so far many people disagree.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do you mean by moral? If you mean who will treat other people more fairly and reasonably, and behave towards others as they would have others behave towards them, then it's the Atheist and it's not close.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

A completely subjective answer to a completely subjective question. Good job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn you /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Mack

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
If you read through many of the threads here there is often the supposition by the Theists that an Atheist can't be moral because he does not have an absolute reference point (god).

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong wrong wrong. No theist said that an atheist cant be moral.

[bocablkr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you read through many of the threads here there is often the supposition by the Theists that an Atheist can't be moral because he does not have an absolute reference point (god).

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong wrong wrong. No theist said that an atheist cant be moral.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? There are many threads here where they question how can an Atheist be moral or even why he would want to be since he does not fear eternal damnation. Have you used the search function?

[MaxPowerPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, from the poll so far many people disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

10 so far.

The poll is what it is. The same poll posted on other forums is likely to have varying results. What theist is going to say that athiests are more moral and vice versa?

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you serious?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
There are many threads here where they question how can an Atheist be moral or even why he would want to be since he does not fear eternal damnation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously missed the point. A theist believes an atheist can act morally. In other words, an atheist can act in ways which I would agree are good and moral. Many do so. The issue is whether or not objective morality can exist without a divine source. That is not the same thing as being moral.

[ QUOTE ]
Have you used the search function?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes numerous times actually. Thanks for asking.

[bocablkr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously, from the poll so far many people disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

10 so far.

The poll is what it is. The same poll posted on other forums is likely to have varying results. What theist is going to say that athiests are more moral and vice versa?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed - however, I was hoping people would try and vote more objectively while considering what I wrote in the OP.

[VarlosZ]

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed - however, I was hoping people would try and vote more objectively while considering what I wrote in the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

If all we were considering was what you wrote in the OP, theists would win in a blowout. You proposed an incentive for atheists not to get caught (or, maybe, for obeying the law) -- not for acting ethically. I think a better argument would be that an atheist is more responsible for his own moral compass, and therefore is more likely to be faithful to it.

Why doesn't the poll have a "neither" option? As it is, I don't think we're going to learn anything here, except that this board is mostly populated by partisan antheists.

[bocablkr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Agreed - however, I was hoping people would try and vote more objectively while considering what I wrote in the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

If all we were considering was what you wrote in the OP, theists would win in a blowout. You proposed an incentive for atheists not to get caught (or, maybe, for obeying the law) -- not for acting ethically. I think a better argument would be that an atheist is more responsible for his own moral compass, and therefore is more likely to be faithful to it.

Why doesn't the poll have a "neither" option? As it is, I don't think we're going to learn anything here, except that this board is mostly populated by partisan antheists.

[/ QUOTE ]

I proposed an incentive for both the Atheist and Theist to act ethically. I simply asked which was the better incentive?

Sorry I did not add a neither option.

[MaxPowerPoker]

I'm curious if this forum is populated by 77% non-theists.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
... The issue is whether or not objective morality can exist without a divine source. That is not the same thing as being moral...

[/ QUOTE ]

I am responding to your post as further clarification of your point, not that I assume you think differently than the following (to the contrary):


Unless I misunderstood the point of the Dog and Pony (Humans) Show by David S., he clearly showed (well, he showed at any rate) that there are no Absolutes in morality. (Never mind the god part and that there are absolutes if you bring a god into the equation - let's keep it simple. Bring god in and it isn’t hard to imagine Absolutes. )

Yet, it seems that others still insist there are.

Am I missing something?

P.s. There are of course, morals we can agree on (to) as good for social order, etc.

[bocablkr]

Anybody else surprised by the results so far - about 80% for the Atheist. Did any Theists vote for the Atheist? Or vice versa?

[MaxPowerPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody else surprised by the results so far - about 80% for the Atheist. Did any Theists vote for the Atheist? Or vice versa?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably a safe be that the results here are directly proportional to the makeup of the population of this forum.

[bocablkr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anybody else surprised by the results so far - about 80% for the Atheist. Did any Theists vote for the Atheist? Or vice versa?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably a safe be that the results here are directly proportional to the makeup of the population of this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which brings me back to a point I made a while ago - there seem to be more non-theists on poker forums (even Negreanu's Full Contact) than any other forums I have been on. Now, I haven't visited a lot of scientific forums so it is probably true there as well. Is this because poker players tend to be very logical and mathematically inclined?

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
[Is this because poker players tend to be very logical and mathematically inclined?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's because we are all a bunch of miscreants. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[MaxPowerPoker]

[ QUOTE ]
It's because we are all a bunch of miscreants. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo!

[Georgia Avenue]

As others have said, as a theist (rather more of a Deist, but nvm) I can’t vote for either one. I don’t EXPECT an Atheist to act immorally because I believe all people are guided by intentions towards an absolute good whether they believe it or not. And plenty of Theists are unable to control their nasty bits despite a conscious knowledge of why they should behave. As Hobbes said, “For the thoughts are to the desires as scouts and spies to range abroad and find the way to the things desired, all steadiness of the mind's motion, and all quickness of the same.”

[Dan Mezick]

You are off by a mile here.

The bottom line is that not every professing Christian in the world believes the "once saved always saved" theology you describe.

In reality, very few professing Christians buy that. It is a popular notion among certain Southern denominations, leading me to belive you are likely from that region.

As for atheists-- certainly a pure atheist has more courage in his little finger than most people have in their whole body.

The reality is there are few actual pure atheists for precisely this reason. Ditto for pure Christians. Philosophical purists (both extremes) tend to be very moral and courageous precisely BECAUSE they have thought it through completely for themselves, and they have the guts to live it out.

Both are rare and 99% of the people are philosophically "mixed breed" mongrels. The missing element is courage.

[Carl_William]

Just a comment: Only Winners Post & they tend to be atheists....

[ QUOTE ]

Which brings me back to a point I made a while ago - there seem to be more non-theists on poker forums (even Negreanu's Full Contact) than any other forums I have been on. Now, I haven't visited a lot of scientific forums so it is probably true there as well. Is this because poker players tend to be very logical and mathematically inclined?


[/ QUOTE ]

It seems to me that 90 percent or probably a much higher percentage of 2plus2 posters are winners at poker or claim to be winners (give the impression or claim to win on balance). The fact is: ON BALANCE; winners play more hours and more often than poker losers. Most of the 2Plus2 poker forum posters claim to win so many big bets per a certain time span. The players who lose money or break about even probably make up at least 98 percent of the total poker population, and as a result of this fact; many losers don't put in that many poker hours; and very few losers post on 2Plus2. All this tells me is that many of the people who boast about their poker winnings (i.e., TwoPlusTwo posters) are atheists.... The survey or poll is loaded with people of a certain type, and not a representative sample of the overall human population. Many very intelligent people don't play poker (at least serious compulsive poker -- serious poker is generally compulsive) or don't develop poker skills, and are not born natural poker players.

How would a survey(poll) concerning the theist-atheistic moral thing for the poker losers be made?

Another thing; the propaganda put out by poker people:
"That a pro poker playing career is a great thing"

Is it really? Or is it mostly a line to keep the current poker hype craze going.... By the way; it's an old line....

Things like:
Go to work when you feel like it.
Get out of bed when you wake up.
You are your own boss.



Sitting a poker table 50 hours a week in not a noble thing to do with our finite lifetime -- the theist or atheistic time span on earth....