revisiting old post

[curtains]

Below is the hand that got me started as a regular poster on 2+2.


500/1000 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 9395464) - Tue Feb 08 22:32:17 EST 2005
Table Table 11784 (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 2: curtainz (5640)
Seat 6: BigPotsOnly (1325)
Seat 7: RoJoSox (3035)
RoJoSox posts small blind (250)
curtainz posts big blind (500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to curtainz [ 9d, Ad ]
BigPotsOnly folds.
RoJoSox raises (2785) to 3035
RoJoSox is all-In.
curtainz ??

For those whom don't remember, please tell me what you would do. I was so shocked by some of the responses to this hand and someone just reminded me about it, so I have to bring it back due to boredom and the invention of SNGPT. I'll post the link to the original thread soon.

[deathpotato]

Call

[bennies]

Congratulations on 1st place.

[Shillx]

Looks like a no brainer call. He has to be pushing more then any pair/ace here. If you made some donkish moves earlier then it becomes close but if you haven't shown the tendancy to call I would call here in a flash.

[Hendricks433]

Fold? the shorty will have like half his stack in next hand and give yourself a good chance at 2nd. But then again a call would put you heads up with the shorty if you win and if you lose youll still have more chips than shorty. I might actually call here. But im very tight in situations like this cause I like to be the aggressor. What do you think his range is? Tighter cause of shorty?

[Annulus]

Easy call. i think you have the best hand and if you lose you still have double the short stack.

[Apathy]

OH NO... not this again. I really hope Gigabet and Daliman don't see this thread /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
OH NO... not this again. I really hope Gigabet and Daliman don't see this thread /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

btw I'm in the call camp on this one but I think you need to mention that Rojosox was playing tight.

[Fatdogs12]

A premium hand is pushing here? Blinds are massive. He has 6 Big blinds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shoot I would probably push a ton of stuff in that position. If he is waiting on a premium hand he doesn't have much longer to wait. INSTA call and if you lose start pushing. Probably make second place even if you lose.

This is my opinion WITHOUT using SNGPT. Gonna go see how wrong or right I was.... No, I don't have to, doesn't even matter, I call every time no questions asked.

[helpmeout]

I call unless

1. He has been overly tight
2. They are both playing for second and I am stealing so much that to lose 2/3 of my stack would no longer allow me to do this.

[Annulus]

i originally misread the hand. i edited.

[Degen]

assuming rojo plays standard for itm, i call this...and fast

[HighestCard]

What buy in was this? I think the chances of you getting first if you knock him out increase enough where this is a good call the vast majority of the time.

[Degen]

most certainly a 215

[HighestCard]

[ QUOTE ]
most certainly a 215

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, how stupid of me to think curtains would lower himself into anything in the two digit range. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Degen]

that plus rojo is in there, he plays the step 5's and higher now, so i just assumed this wasn't some Barry Bonds and Rafael Palmeiro meet in college post

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
that plus rojo is in there, he plays the step 5's and higher now, so i just assumed this wasn't some Barry Bonds and Rafael Palmeiro meet in college post

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]
that plus rojo is in there, he plays the step 5's and higher now, so i just assumed this wasn't some Barry Bonds and Rafael Palmeiro meet in college post

[/ QUOTE ]
to be fair, curtains said that he got some B12 from skipper bob...

[schwza]

i could not imagine folding. i'd call A2s.

[Gramps]

Given your opponent's likely range of hands (not being super-wide, but probably wide enough where A9s is probably at least 50% to win), I'd call. There's a good chance his thinking is that you're not going to call unless you have something good.

If you win, you basically win the whole darned thing (with an occassional 2nd). If you lose, you still have shorty outchipped 2600 to 1300, so you'll still get at least 2nd the majority of the time, and 1st isn't out of the question. If you fold, it's now 3535/5140/1325, with an aggressive player acting before you 2/3 times per orbit (who, indications appear to be (from this hand at least) isn't going to respect/fear your big stack).

[Slim Pickens]

This depends on your opponent's pushing range, as with most 3-handed cases, quite a bit. Not knowing him, I call against a typical opponent at any level. The problem with assuming everyone is a "typical opponent" is that it never allows you to adapt in these situations where your opponent's range of hands makes a big difference in your EV.

[barry111]

play for first, meaning CALL.

[BDarch]

This discussion is turning out much different than the original

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
play for money, meaning CALL.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

"Playing for first" is just such awful reasoning it makes me want to kick puppies.

[Sabrazack]

I agree, maybe not the puppy kicking part though.

Oh, and i call.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

call... A9s will win 46% over A7-AK, Axs, pairs, KQs, KJs. If villain is pushing something worse like any two, A9s will win 63% of time. Pot is offering 1.5:1. Math: you will lose 2500 54% of time and win 3800 46% (assuming villain is on stronger range of hands) of time for +EV of 398 chips. If you lose you're still in ok shape. A must call, IMO.

now lets see what everyone else thinks...

[barry111]

[ QUOTE ]
play for first, meaning CALL.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the OP had pocket 9's for some reason. Though I would probably still call.

[lem45216]

Hmm, i'd fold this.


But after reading all these posts im obviously making a terrible mistake, hence why i've not got an ROI of azillion% at any limit. Thanks for this post and the responses, it has alerted me to an obvious leak in my game and i shall begin fixing it now. I think i need to put SNGPT on my christmas list..

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, i'd fold this.


But after reading all these posts im obviously making a terrible mistake, hence why i've not got an ROI of azillion% at any limit. Thanks for this post and the responses, it has alerted me to an obvious leak in my game and i shall begin fixing it now. I think i need to put SNGPT on my christmas list..

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so fast... wait 'til he links the OP, there is two sides to this story (although I doubt you would be folding for the "right" reasons)

[lem45216]

Yeah i doubt i would.
But now i am intrigued (sp?) as to what the OP said. I wait in anticipation.

[Slim Pickens]

It is a mistake to call if the opponent is tight.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
play for money, meaning CALL.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

"Playing for first" is just such awful reasoning it makes me want to kick puppies.

[/ QUOTE ]

fu, i like puppies.

it makes me want to kick cute little bunnies.

citanul

[curtains]

Ok first of all this is a very easy call. SNGPT has it as like +1.3% EV (A ridiculously huge amount considering how high my EV already is) assuming that the hand my opponent pushed is the absolute worst hand he would ever push. Now we can assume he might even push weaker hands, but who knows.

To make a long story short, folding is ridiculous. The math can prove it, no amount of abstract future game situations should make up for this.

Also I was much weaker player then so forgive the few stupid things I say. I had only instinct, not math, to back me up then.

Here is the link:

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=&Number=1697453&page=& view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=



Also note that from a theoretical standpoint (ie all opponents play perfectly, and you are shooting for the highest EV for this hand), I believe that the SB should push somewhere around 55% of hands, whereas the BB should call about 27%. Forgive me I did those numbers last night, and they may be off by a few % points.

[Fatdogs12]

Even if I knew for a fact that he was pushing KQs, I would still call. You are still ahead, you got him covered, and the blinds are insane. What else is there?

[1C5]

nice call.

Call because pot's big and his range is wide.

[schwza]

wow, what a crazy thread. some gems, and by "gems" i mean "flaming piles of crap":

gigabet:
[ QUOTE ]
Who cares if they take your blind? You have 5k in chips and alot more long term fold equity than they do. So why not use as much of it as possible and trim their stacks down as low as they will allow them to go. Which is what will happen, because your blind will not be stolen every single time, but you can steal theirs forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

dali:
[ QUOTE ]
You all fail to realize that very often in this situation, the SB is ONLY pushing with very strong hands since the other stack is so short, i.e. AK, AQ, AJs, 88-AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh yeah, SB probably folds AJ or 77 there. if his connection died.

this is itm. payouts are 2/3/5, not 2/4/5. there is not a lot of incentive to avoid going out in 3rd.

both of their arguments are totally dependent on rojo's "playing tight." curtains said they were 6-handed ~3 hands ago. maybe this guy's gonna open up his game a little? dali's range for SB made me want to vomit.

edit to add: i forgot the other thing that makes me want to vomit is that no one responded to the point that the BB only has ~1350 left, and will post 500 in the blind NEXT HAND. this mythical 3-handed bubble where curtains can rob everybody blind (haha) is not going to happen.

[kevkev60614]

This is so awesome. I was just reading the old thread (I'm going through The Shadow's first post links) and now I get to read the update.

Looks quite different this time around. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I wonder if Gigabet and Daliman have changed their mind? Oh and in my completely worthless opinion i think curtains is a better sng player and more logical thinker than both giga and dali

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok first of all this is a very easy call. SNGPT has it as like +1.3% EV (A ridiculously huge amount considering how high my EV already is) assuming that the hand my opponent pushed is the absolute worst hand he would ever push. Now we can assume he might even push weaker hands, but who knows.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you can invent SNGPT ranges where folding is correct, but unless you had some very odd read, you'd be wrong to put any "normal" opponent on a range that tight.

For the record, I like puppies, but people justifying decisions on the basis of "playing for first" just really pisses me off, enough that I might do something like kick a puppy. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif I would then regret kicking the puppy.

[kevkev60614]

The two reasons Giga gave for folding, if I understand correctly, were:
1) Pusher is tight, so the range is likely to make curtains a dog.
2) Pusher is tight, and curtains is a far superior SH player, so curtains should be able to steal frequently in the future.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
The two reasons Giga gave for folding, if I understand correctly, were:
1) Pusher is tight, so the range is likely to make curtains a dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's def. what daliman was saying. i think gigabet too. and i think it's completely wrong. any decent player in that situation will be pushing with a range that is well behind A9s, and hero had pot odds.

[ QUOTE ]

2) Pusher is tight, and curtains is a far superior SH player, so curtains should be able to steal frequently in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the thing about stealing a lot was more related to rojo's supposed tightness (mostly with 6+ players) and curtains' stack. my sense from the thread was that gigabet thought rojo was better than curtains.

[Gramps]

FWIW, I think the 215 public in general has opened up their calling standards of big stack bullying (since it was so effective and everyone started doing it), so while a fold + running over the table may have been the highest $EV play at some point in the past, it clearly (IMO at least) isn't now (against most players/in most situations). Around Feb./March is when I really started noticing a change, following an influx of a number of hyper-aggressive players (who, without fail, would use the "push like a maniac with the big stack" strategy).

[Nicholasp27]

with those blinds, there really isn't gonna be very many future opps to steal from the other stacks if you fold...

if blinds were smaller i could see it, but at 500?

and many people will push any-ace, any-king once itm...

[rohjoh]

I still stand by my original post. Calling with diamonds is horrible, if it was clubs its an easy call.

[bigt439]

Wow. That old school post just blew me away. Either people played way worse just 10 months ago, or people's advice was way worse 10 months ago. Either way, if someone played bad enough to make this a fold at the 215's I would be shocked, which is why I am shocked that advice from very good players was to fold. Wow.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. That old school post just blew me away. Either people played way worse just 10 months ago, or people's advice was way worse 10 months ago. Either way, if someone played bad enough to make this a fold at the 215's I would be shocked, which is why I am shocked that advice from very good players was to fold. Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

the games were way better 10 months ago.

citanul

Wow has gigabet changed.

[raptor517]

lol, i havent seen this post in a long long time. against rojosox 10 months ago, he prolly has A9 pwnd. he was the tightest prick in the world in that spot. dont get me wrong.. i still autocall.. but its entertaining. holla

[microbet]

This hand is from 2/2005 and I think I remember it. Your reg date is from 2003.

[Daliman]

Fold, obviously. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[NiR]

havnt read the replies but i say thats a easy call.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand is from 2/2005 and I think I remember it. Your reg date is from 2003.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but at that time I had made only about 200 posts in 2 years! Please notice Ive since made over 5000 in about 6 months.

[FieryJustice]

and I thought I had no life... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[SCfuji]

raptor

ive noticed that even tight players adjust when the blinds are this large. cant reads like [ QUOTE ]
he was the tightest prick in the world in that spot.

[/ QUOTE ] be somewhat thrown out the window? or by "that spot" do you mean exactly when the blinds were this large with these stacks?

[Seadood228]

Wow I suck.. wtf was I thinking..

The old post was great, I agreed with you then and this was the post that got me really reading on 2+2.

[microbet]

I thought about that, but it seemed crazy.

Now, 2800 posts or so in about 9 months, that's perfectly normal.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This hand is from 2/2005 and I think I remember it. Your reg date is from 2003.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but at that time I had made only about 200 posts in 2 years! Please notice Ive since made over 5000 in about 6 months.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? I remember you as a regular when I joined for some reason...that was fall 04...

youre a sneaky one

[lorinda]

I didn't believe him either, but I checked the archive server and the Curtains on there has very few posts.

Lori

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't believe him either, but I checked the archive server and the Curtains on there has very few posts.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe I am confusing him with Venetian Blinds...

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
raptor

ive noticed that even tight players adjust when the blinds are this large. cant reads like [ QUOTE ]
he was the tightest prick in the world in that spot.

[/ QUOTE ] be somewhat thrown out the window? or by "that spot" do you mean exactly when the blinds were this large with these stacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, i duno if u knew the rojosox of old.. but 10 months ago when he was breaking onto the sng scene a bit, he was one of the TIGHTEST players there was. with a stack out there below 1500, at 250-500, as well as shoving into the big stack, it might have actually been slightly -ev to call with A9o against rojosox's pushing range. thats what my point was. and note again, i still autocall, specially now. holla

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This hand is from 2/2005 and I think I remember it. Your reg date is from 2003.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but at that time I had made only about 200 posts in 2 years! Please notice Ive since made over 5000 in about 6 months.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, obviously, you all have me to thank for curtains' increased posting in this forum.

You're welcome.

[TWINUNO]

What if this hand was in the bubbble and curtainz had 4000 rojo and 2500 and the others 1500 1000? At blinds of 300?

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
What if this hand was in the bubbble and curtainz had 4000 rojo and 2500 and the others 1500 1000? At blinds of 300?

[/ QUOTE ]

so the question is:

what if this wer an entirely different hand, with nothing similar at all, except 2 players being the same, either of whom would likely have a different playing style in this new scenario than in the original (ie, new reads)?

citanul

[Rojosox]

As Raptor suggested, I was the tightest prick ever back then. I don't play sngs anymore. I am destroying in cash games. But anyhow, that's an EASY call. I would call myself shoving there! (What did i shove anyhow? QJo?) Thrilling repost. CALL Curtains!!!!!!!!!!! - Jared