Pre-Flop play Under the Gun

Although poker is not a mechanical game, I think for a beginner such as myself thinking in a mechanical manner in regards to my starting hands not only is necessary, but essential. Once I sit and get a feel for the table, I can begin to deviate. Once I get some experience I can loosen up, slightly. Until then I think I need to be as conservative as possible, and allow myself to really focus on other aspects of the game, others betting for one, far too often I find myself just playing my own hand, not really concentrating on any players I am up against. I really want to simplify this game as much as possible. Here is what I was thinking. This is a combination of Lou Krieger, Lee Jones, and David Sklansky.


Pre-Flop Play under the gun (For purposes of this post I will define early position as the 4 to the left of the button, named, SB, BB, UTG1, and UTG2).


The hands I will be playing in position UTG1 are as follows:


AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99

AKs, AQs, AJs, ATs

KQs

QJs

AKo, AQo


Raise with AA, KK, QQ, and AKs, call everything else. In addition if I am re-raised, I will re-raise AA, KK, QQ, all others I will call.


I will not 4 bet 99, ATs, QJs, AQo.

I will not 3 bet AQo.


The hands I will be playing in position UTG2 are as follows: (assuming no raise)


All hands that I would play in UTG1 plus


88, KJs, QJs, JTs, and KQo


Raise with: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, AQs, and KQs. If I am re-raised I will re-raise with all those hands except JJ, AKs, AQs, KQs.


I will not 4 bet 88 or KQo.


If there is a raise before me I only play pairs AA – JJ, AKs, AQs, AJs, KQs, AKo. I raise with AA – QQ and AKs.


Some of you might believe this to be far too tight, (If so I really want to know), but like I said in my opening I really need to simplify this game as much as possible (for now) to allow myself to focus on other things at the table. If I can get my starting hands down cold, things could open up.


I understand that all three of these authors advocated playing far more hands in early position. I just think that although all early position a distinction (maybe I am wrong) has to be made in terms of UTG and the blinds.


Any thoughts comments would be much appreciated.

One final thing for those of you who think I may be nuts.


I'm not really sure about the starting hands, I just do not agree with the thinking that all early position hands, (4 to the left of the button) should be played the same way.


With UTG1, you are first to act pre-flop, third all other betting rounds. UTG2, second, fourth. SB, ninth, first. BB, tenth, second. Obviously the blinds also have money in there already thus changing their plays.


This is what I think. Those first two positions I am talking about you should be tight as anything, opening it up as you go.


For example Sklansky says you can play all the way down to Group 4 hands in early position, (given what he said that all hands in a group should generally be played the same way) I am thinking that a J9s, or AJo would be much better plays after seeing exactly how many people will be in the pot with you, and what it will cost to play that particular hand.


If you still think I am crazy say so. No hard feelings.

Pretty good. As a beginning player you will be amazed at how tight you have to play preflop. If open raised before you, only play AA-TT, AKs-AJs.

KQs is dangerous because you dead if the raiser has AA, AK, KK, KQo is an easy fold. Also consider UTG3 as early position.

When betting in early position, ask yourself, "Do I want to call 1-3 raises when the betting comes back to me, considering that I will be out of position on the next 3 rounds?


Until you can appreciate how difficult it is to play in early position and can recognize when and how to play weaker hands up front, fold weaker hands and wait for the next deal.

for a normal game it seems a bit loose to me.


utg1 forget QJs ATs...a raise behind ya and your trapped..


utg2 KJs, QJs, JTs forget it...


also reraise with AKo....ya want it HU with this hand if possible.


some games you can play those hands, usually passive games or as you get better and know how to get away from em. but on a typical table, the hands i singled out are easily dominated. they look good. but save em for about the mid position before tryin em...ya usually want some callers before ya to play em also...they work well multi way...


if a tough player raises behind ya, how much do ya think of the hand now? if he has AJ AQ or AK are ya gonna be able to fold it when ya need to?


sound too tight? not for a typical table. if it were passive, thats another story...


just some ideas...


b

Bernie, Bill, thank you very much for getting back to me so quickly.


I have to say I am surprised that I got people to agree with me so to speak. I was all ready for someone to say if I followed that advice I would be playing way way too tight.


I also surprised that I have not seen anything like that in any of the three books I have read so far. (Not saying that it does not exist, I find more and more things each time I reread, but if this point was made, it never jumped off the page at me, or I completely missed all the examples). A phrase like "tighten up considerably" when a raise comes does not really spell it out in my opinion.


Let me get a few things clear.


First for William:


You are saying you would consider the 5 positions left of the button as "early positions?" Interesting. Liked what you said about KQs, how to get rid of it if there is a raise before you, from UTG1. Most likely he has that hand beat, right off the bat, and the possibility of your drawing dead certainly exists.


For Bernie:


In one of the later chapters in his book Krieger states that even though you are a beginner you do not have to act like it. There is no reason why I cannot play like I am the best player in the world. This is in reference to throwing away a big hand, just because most rookies will not do it, doesn't mean I have to play that way. Yes I can throw away a big hand. Dumped KK one time after the flop when I knew I was up against an good player who was representing AA.


Never-the-less I like your point about dumping those marginal hands in early position. Early position UTG, premium hands.


Good stuff guys, thanks!!

ya prompted me to crack the ol hpfap book. and ill be damned, it says group 4 hands....id still tend to fold em EP. i may be giving up a little, but it makes some of my decisions easier. i cant fathom playing QTs that early. unless the table is right to do so. i try to minimize my variance. but there are times i raise AJo in EP


just some ideas....


b

When UTG1, you'll play 99. When UTG2, you'll play 88. But, you won't play any pairs lower than these in either position. Why is this?


How do you expect to win a pot with 99 or 88? It's tough to win with these hands unimproved especially when you're in early position. An overcard to a 9 will come on the flop more than 80% of the time so it can be tough to stay in the hand without flopping a set.


Therefore, how different is 99 to 22 or any other smaller pair? It seems likely (though certainly not necessary) that you're going to need to flop a set in order to win.


What do you think?

Your overall standards for entering the pot are reasonable. You'll need to learn how to adjust these standards based on how the game is playing at the time.


However, you're raising standard are MUCH TOO TIGHT. I believe you should always be raising with JJ, TT, AKo, and AQo. It's okay to limp with AKs, AQs, AJs, and KQs if you're hoping to get the chance to three-bet with these big suited cards. However, most times you should just raise yourself.


If you only raise with AA, KK, QQ, and AKs UTG, your observant opponents may pick up on this and will never call you. I reccomend you raise more often with the above reccomended hands as a way to mix-up your play and increase your aggressiveness.

I'm an advanced beginner. If I see someone playing offsuit cards up front other than AK,AQ,KQ I smell fish. Observant and knowledge player will pick up on this and reraise behind you to isolate (and ream) you. This is probably the biggest tell a newbie can make.

also throw in a weird raise once in a blue moon...say 98s. IF there are obaservant opponents watchiin. ya dont have to play if the flop doesnt hit ya, but it will throw the better readers off when ya do hit. and after...once they see ya do it once, it should keep for a couple hours...


just another idea...


b

A critical point to consider is what the game is like. If it is a drawing game (lots of people see the flop) where no one folds if you raise (a lot of low limit games are like this), that changes things quite a bit.


One of the main reasons for raising (perhaps the most important) is to try to limit the field (get out the hands that could beat you). But many (most?) LLHE players don't think that way. They think of raising simply in terms of getting more money in the pot, and if you raise they'll be only too happy to oblige (put more money in the pot). So your reason for raising should not be based on isolation, if that's not happening. It should be based on EV (get more money in the pot when you stand a better chance of winning than the number of hands playing). So that changes the hands you'll want to raise with.


In this type of game, especially if its passive, position becomes less important. Drawing hands rise in value (such as pairs, Ax suited and medium suited connectors) and high cards go down (such as AQo). You might play hands which in a less loose-passive game you would normally fold, and conversly might fold hands you would normally play.


So in formulating your pre-flop strategy, take into consideration what type of game it is and what you're trying to do with your raises.

I play a little looser than what you describe. Plus I probably wouldn't describe the blinds as early positions (certainly not preflop). I would describe EP as UTG1, 2 and 3. I also tend to play all three positions about the same.


I'll call with AA-88, AK-AJo, AK-ATs, KQ-KTs, QJ-QTs, JT-J9s, T9-98s.

Raise with AA-TT, AKs-KQs, AKo-AQo.

I'll reraise with the same hands minus JJ and TT, and if I don't reraise I muck the hand (if I start mucking too many hands I tighten up to what you play with).


However, if the game is loose and not agressive I'll play with any pair, suited connector, and Axs

Overcards on the 22 is 100%, a straight made with a two is worth less than a straight made with a 8, 88 beats half the pairs out there, 888 beats half the sets out there.


Still, you do make a good point, and if the game is loose and not aggressive I'd play 22, 23s, and Axs as well.