Preflop, flop, turn, heck the whole thing up for debate...

[krishanleong]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

I'm posting it one piece at a time though.

UTG and MP were predictable bad players. 60/14 type players. Players who I have dominated more than they dominate me. SB is unknown.

Krishan

[Lmn55d]

i think preflop is fine as long as the blinds are not aggressive.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
i think preflop is fine as long as the blinds are not aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

am i allowed to quote this without saying why I agree?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
i think preflop is fine as long as the blinds are not aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero ...

No read on SB. This is subtle. Give me your thoughts.

Krishan

[baronzeus]

i doubt your equity is enough here to raise--i'd just call and pop a safe turn i think

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
i doubt your equity is enough here to raise--i'd just call and pop a safe turn i think

[/ QUOTE ]

Define safe...

Krishan

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i doubt your equity is enough here to raise--i'd just call and pop a safe turn i think

[/ QUOTE ]

Define safe...

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]


non-heart, non A I think...depends on the action I guess.

Like, if the turn brings a T or a J or a K I think if the action goes bet call fold or something you should raise. but if SB checks a big turn card and someone else bets I think you can either call or fold depending on pot size and how many outs you think you have. (like if you think your 2pr/gutshot outs are any good)

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
depends on the action I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, one of the advantages of waiting till the turn is we can dump the hand to 2 bets on the turn pretty safely. Barring that, I agree an ace or heart is not good. Rest of your analysis looks nice.
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, MP folds, Hero ????

Krishan

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think preflop is fine as long as the blinds are not aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

am i allowed to quote this without saying why I agree?

[/ QUOTE ]

[NLSoldier]

I pop the flop.

[baronzeus]

i think i prefer to cap and bet or call one if he leads on the river. this looks an awful lot like 88 and A9-K9, 98, but i think J9, T9, and 97s should definitely be considered.


edit: i think it's close between calling down and capping and calling one on the river

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I pop the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate? Seems like our equity isn't huge and we can't protect our hand at all. Why raise the flop?

Krishan

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I pop the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate? Seems like our equity isn't huge and we can't protect our hand at all. Why raise the flop?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not a fan of elaborating, sorry.



<font color="white"> JK, gimmie a second </font>

[Mig]

If you wanted to pop the turn wouldn't be easy for MP to raise the turn for free showdown with a marginal holding and outplay you ? I think you need to define your hand better.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I pop the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate? Seems like our equity isn't huge and we can't protect our hand at all. Why raise the flop?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not a fan of elaborating, sorry.


[/ QUOTE ]



hahahaha just great.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I pop the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate? Seems like our equity isn't huge and we can't protect our hand at all. Why raise the flop?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not a fan of elaborating, sorry.



<font color="white"> JK, gimmie a second </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a problem...

<font color="white"> my penis is long </font>

[NLSoldier]

I think we have pretty good equity here. SB has a draw a large portion of the time and the other two probably have overcards or a smaller pair or weak draw like a gutshot. I think raising the flop will also make the rest of the hand easier to play.

I know this is probably the classic type of wait till a safe turn to raise scenario but I just dont like it that much. What if sb doenst bet the turn? Or what if he 3bets the turn? Id also like to have the option of taking a free card/cheap showdown some of the time.

[TheMetetron]

I'm going to try to be more like soldier.

I too pop the flop.

I too am not a fan of elaborating.

[wheelz]

[ QUOTE ]
i think i prefer to cap and bet or call one if he leads on the river. this looks an awful lot like 88 and A9-K9, 98, but i think J9, T9, and 97s should definitely be considered.


edit: i think it's close between calling down and capping and calling one on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

0 liner

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm going to try to be more like soldier.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a good idea. let me know if i need to elaborate.

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm going to try to be more like soldier.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a good idea. let me know if i need to elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is too f'in funny /images/graemlins/grin.gif

to add some thoughts though: I would also raise this. It helps define my hand, and depending on the action behind me it could help there as well. I think it makes the later streets easier to play as well.

Is it possible that this is an example where NL's line is right for his style of play where others line fits best for them? I think so often we get stuck into trying to figure out the most +EV line, and in some cases its really not provable or demonstrable. Maybe this isn't one of those cases, but I think its worthy of keeping in mind when discussing hands...

[Surfbullet]

Pf is okay.

I like waiting for the turn here. 6s, 7s, Ts, Js, Ks, As, /images/graemlins/heart.gifs can all be considered "Bad" cards which we may or may not want to raise. Once 3bet I'm concerned about A9/K9 or 89 rather than 9T or 79. It appears obvious from our action that the 9 improved us, so I'd just call figuring he doesn't care or it improved him as well.

Surf

[spydog]

I like your flop call. This is a great example of waiting until the turn to raise. Raising doesn't really help you play the rest of the hand because your opponents can't really put you on hand because you could be raising a pair/2pair/set/flush draw/straight draw/overcards + gutshot...etc. So, you won't really be able to interpret later action with much accuracy.

UTG's 3-bet on the turn is very strong. He knows he has zero fold equity, so his 3-bet is for value. I think 9x would have jumped at the opportunity to pop this flop, so I think he's got a boat here enough that I just call down.

I don't like the preflop call. It seems so clear to everyone that this call is good. Maybe I'm missing something?? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Blinds close the action and could raise while Q9o is going to the flop as a lock on being 4 or 5 handed. I can understand that domination isn't much of a factor here, but there are other reasons the hand doesn't play well multi-way.

A flop raise is better than a call considering half the deck will make the turn unraisable for you. Take the equity while it's there.

Love your turn raise, and the 3 bet doesn't scare me as much as it should....I would most likely cap.

[ QUOTE ]
i doubt your equity is enough here to raise--i'd just call and pop a safe turn i think

[/ QUOTE ]

How good does hero's hand have to be have enough equity? A9? Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif9?

Asking to learn not to be a pain /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[tansoku]

I'd fold pflop as these kinds of hands always seems to put me in marginal situations that spew chips, like as not.

I think the flop is a raise with TPGK and a couple morons in the hand, 'getting your money in with the best hand is never wrong' type argument.

7 outs to the nuts if you are behind, and the boat over boat implied odds are great. I can't see capping the turn improving your chances to win the hand, so it has to be for value.

Hands you are behind:
A9 = 4
K9 = 4
88 = 3
33 = 3
89? = 2
Hands you are ahead:

J9 = 4
T9 = 4

8/16 = 50%. Capping the turn is 1:1, and you improve to the nuts 15% of the time with 7 outs, 50+15 = 65%. Looks like a raise, even if you include 89 here and discount your outs a bit..

It gets more complex if you assume A8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif/ /images/graemlins/heart.gif can play this way as he can now improve when you don't..

Hopefully I didn't botch this too badly. Cap the turn, call a river bet UI looks like the line.

[ QUOTE ]
Hands you are behind:
A9 = 4
K9 = 4
88 = 3
33 = 3
89? = 2
Hands you are ahead:

J9 = 4
T9 = 4

8/16 = 50%. Capping the turn is 1:1, and you improve to the nuts 15% of the time with 7 outs, 50+15 = 65%. Looks like a raise, even if you include 89 here and discount your outs a bit..

It gets more complex if you assume A8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif/ /images/graemlins/heart.gif can play this way as he can now improve when you don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, this is far from the truth.

Considering UTG is a fish and just came to life on a turn 3-bet, it should read more like:

Hands you are behind:
88 = 3
33 = 3

Hands you are ahead:
Anything that this loose fish decides to raise on impulse (including, but not limited to a draw that Hero is making costly for him - where he says, "I won't stand for this sh!t; I'm gonna raise").

[rory]

Preflop is good.

I just call on the flop-- there are many cards you don't like on the turn and if the SB decides to bet again, he gets to find out if you are beat with your Q9 by getting popped, so it costs you nothing. Your equity in the hand is not so great on the flop and if you raise the flop, you set up a situation where you lose your good position on the turn. The most likely turn situation if you raise the flop is it gets checked to you and you bet. And then if you are beat you get to get check-raised and all of that fun stuff. If you just call on the flop, then the most likely turn situation is there is the SB bets again and everyone else reacts to the bet before you and then you decide what to do.

On the turn, you are behind to a boat a lot. I would just call the turn and also call the river unimproved, in case this guy is playing a worse 9 weird or tried to get fancy with an overpair or something. I dunno, you called him bad-- dunno what that means but I'm going to showdown with this hand. I don't even really consider capping the turn if that was on your mind.

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is good.


[/ QUOTE ]

Others have said this too, but I just can't find anything but a fold. Could you please explain your logic for the call?

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is good.


[/ QUOTE ]

Others have said this too, but I just can't find anything but a fold. Could you please explain your logic for the call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you call QTo?

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't even really consider capping the turn if that was on your mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I capped and got check raised on the river.

Krishan

This preflop call is something I've just started adding to my game and its been hugely +EV over the last few k hands. Basically you're looking to get involved in a pot for cheap in position against a bunch of bad players. The fact that your hand is not great will be made up for by the fact that you have position and make better postflop decisions than your opponents.

Obviously you're not looking to overlimp two TAGs but two donks.

[arkady]

preflop = fine, i do that too.

turn = cap and hope a Q of hearts comes on the river so you can scoop a mega pot.

[tansoku]

[ QUOTE ]


8/16 = 50%. Capping the turn is 1:1, and you improve to the nuts 15% of the time with 7 outs, 50+15 = 65%. Looks like a raise, even if you include 89 here and discount your outs a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nevermind, should have been odds 8:16 = 1:2 win 1 time lose 2, so 33% + 15% = 48%. Not enough to cap for value..

[rory]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is good.


[/ QUOTE ]

Others have said this too, but I just can't find anything but a fold. Could you please explain your logic for the call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you call QTo?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's where I draw the line. I wouldn't call QTo if they were better players.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
:(

[/ QUOTE ]

He was bad. We split. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Krishan

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is good.


[/ QUOTE ]

Others have said this too, but I just can't find anything but a fold. Could you please explain your logic for the call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you call QTo?

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's where I draw the line. I wouldn't call QTo if they were better players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you call QTo as a default (I do) you should look for perfect spots and play Q9o. This spot was perfect.

Krishan

[rory]

I think it is right to play a really wide range of hands in position against 2 bad players. It depends on what 'bad' means, but if it means passive calling stations then Q9o is a good hand to limp with after them on the button. Maybe I suck though and this play is wrong-- it is up for debate in my mind.

[rory]

I'd probably raise QTo.

[rory]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably raise QTo.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is like my favorite post ever

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably raise QTo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me, but it's probably close.

Krishan

[paco]

[ QUOTE ]
i think i prefer to cap and bet or call one if he leads on the river. this looks an awful lot like 88 and A9-K9, 98, but i think J9, T9, and 97s should definitely be considered.


edit: i think it's close between calling down and capping and calling one on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Granted, UTG is read as bad, but I think what swings this to calldown is that he didn't try to protect his hand on this drawy board (str and 2 fd's). To me that screams boat: we've got the action we wanted on the turn, let's pop it now (UTG thinking).

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably raise QTo.

[/ QUOTE ]

you need to post more. Im sick of being the only lagtard.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
This preflop call is something I've just started adding to my game and its been hugely +EV over the last few k hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop right there and figure out why this statement sucks.

[Justin A]

I think you played the entire hand really well.

[Grisgra]

Preflop, I raise when I'm feelin' my oats, otherwise I just call. Or even fold. I can't imagine a huge difference in EV here anyway you play it. Raising is probably marginally correct, you may get a blind to fold a weak king.

[rory]

I'm pretty sure I lean more to the tight side of the HUSH forum.

[Grisgra]

If UTG and MP are as bad as you say, they'll call the flop with any single overcard, maybe any backdoor draw. They *probably* won't do so on the turn, and they may even fold that overcard after you raise. So while it's contrary to the wait-a-street-until-you-are-sure-you-are-safe-to-raise philosophy, I raise. It may well be the case that if you just call, it gets checked around to you on the turn if SB checks with his 8 or heart draw and UTG/MP miss.

[Grisgra]

Well, that's disturbing.

I think a weak 9 is more likely to have raised the flop or raised the turn before your bet. His action seems more like a completely safe hand to me, like a boat. On the other hand, against the range that he'd limp with, you're ahead of a lot of them. You're ahead of 96s, 97, T9, J9. Behind to 98, K9, A9 (I'm sure he'd ol with A9, based on your descript). So actually you're not ahead of his open-limping nines by much. And he could have open-limped with a pocket.

It's close, but I think I don't cap. I'd cap with K9 or A9, probably. (But I don't know that doing so with K9 would be correct).

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
:(

[/ QUOTE ]

He was bad. We split. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Congrats for dodging a bullet. Great hand to post. I think you were probably a little too agg (as I said in my previous post, if he open-limps with 96, 97, 98, T9, J9, Q9, K9, A9, 88, 33, you're only ahead of 4 of those and behind to the rest) but glad you ended up chopping.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
:(

[/ QUOTE ]

He was bad. We split. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

Congrats for dodging a bullet. Great hand to post. I think you were probably a little too agg (as I said in my previous post, if he open-limps with 96, 97, 98, T9, J9, Q9, K9, A9, 88, 33, you're only ahead of 4 of those and behind to the rest) but glad you ended up chopping.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think the turn is close but bad. I should have called.

Krishan

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure I lean more to the tight side of the HUSH forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I know...I was tryin to be funny /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Raising is probably marginally correct, you may get a blind to fold a weak king.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, so now you can win the showdown with queen high. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[tolbiny]

you folded to the river check raise right?

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
you folded to the river check raise right?

[/ QUOTE ]

you read the thread before replying right?

[StellarWind]

I think all three preflop actions are close.

The flop is a standard tradeoff between taking an immediate pot equity profit versus retaining the power of the button for the big streets.

If I raise the flop a bad card will turn (almost everything is bad on this drawish board). Then I will have to rebet my hand into three people, call down the likely checkraise because of outs and doubts, and have a generally terrible time.

I prefer to call and force my opponents to play the turn without my help.

My read on the turn is that SB has folded an eight or pocket third pair. UTG is probably call-raising with a full house, most likely 33 in view of the limp, no flop raise, and SB's hypothetical eight. I would call down the checkraise. We've already announced at least a nine and our kicker is only fifth-best at this point. Further aggression seems very reckless.

[goofball]

The PF limp is standard. Everyone limps (read: has a crappy hand), you have position and a decent hand. There are soo many ways you can win this pot after the flop you can't fold. You just can't.

Flop I wanted you to raise but then I read rory's argument and now I'm torn. If we don't raise there's a good chance we get outplayed by 77 looking for a free showdown or something esle creative, but that isn't quite enough reason to rasies here on such a heavy board when we can ensure a bet goes in on the turn.

Turn I like capping if you don't get checkraised on the river. I don't think most opponents c/r you on the river and 4 BBs on the turn river isn't quite enough. 5 is optimal imo. I think it's correct to cap and decide on the river, if he bets again just call, if he checke bet and call a c/r but hate it.

[tolbiny]

You do realize someone can state an opinion about how one should play without having to make a declaritive statement, right?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
You do realize someone can state an opinion about how one should play without having to make a declaritive statement, right?

[/ QUOTE ]


i dont think you can fold to a river check-raise because a moron will play any 9 like this

[tolbiny]

ive got around 50k hands at 10-20, and i have a hunch that if i went back and looked at all the hands that i capped the turn and got checkraised on the river that i wouldn't find trips with a Q kicker winning more than 5% of those hands.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
ive got around 50k hands at 10-20, and i have a hunch that if i went back and looked at all the hands that i capped the turn and got checkraised on the river that i wouldn't find trips with a Q kicker winning more than 5% of those hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

possibly. It's close though, I think 5-6% is about the amount you win it but really i think you should just call the turn and river (changing my mind from before) and avoid all this mess. You are check-3bet so rarely with worse than trips that it's just not worth the mess that you have to deal with on the river,

[tolbiny]

I agree that capping the turn is a poor play here, it is less of a poor play if you are folding to the river check raise, but having to call and pay 2 bets on the river when behind is just ridiculous.

Edit: also the pot is 14 or 15 BBs- 5-6% isn't enough here (from a strict odds view)

[wheelz]

yep i retract my turn opinion (which was just quoting you) as well. i thought the SB bet-3-bet, i didn't realize UTG was the 3-bettor.

i really should read hands more closely before i comment.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
i really should read hands more closely before i comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

me too

[oreogod]

Postin "naked" -- I only read to your turn action.

Preflop...bad limpers, I call. Ppl are right to mention how aggressive the blinds are as that is a del facto factor. QTo I raise...its loose but I was almost debating a raise here w/ Q9o (pretty low huh? But I limbo w/ the best of them and I [censored] other ppls [censored] up preflop...in a good way. As a note, I play a lot of 2-4 handed).

Flop...call. Schwing.

Turn...UTG 3bet, man thats ugly. Call. Without doing any math and going by a quick-onthefly-and-by-feel combo run in my brain I dont think u are beating 55 percent of the ranges here. Call. Dont spew...for the love of god....dont spew. You have a pretty hand, but theres a few other pretty sluts out there that can kick the [censored] out of your good looking bar whore.