20-40 Hand

[Jeffage]

20-40 game on PP. I have AQo on the button. 5 people limp. I limp. The SB and BB come. 8 to the flop (good game). Flop is 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (I have no hearts). Everyone checks. The turn is the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Now the SB bets and everyone folds to me. SB is unknown. Your play?

Jeff

[CardSharpCook]

Call down. Maybe he was hoping to slow-play his set, maybe he now likes his flush draw, maybe he thinks you like your flush draw. However, I raise this PF. Might as well juice it with the best hand and position.

Raise this pf. Call down on turn, WAY ahead or Way behidn situation.

[Jeffage]

I see little reason to raise this preflop after 5 limpers and facing loose blinds. Suited, I do it cause it plays better multiway. Offsuit, all the 78s type hands are gaining implied odds against me and will make fewer mistakes postflop.

Jeff

[BurnsvilleCardClub]

Typical player would not bet out the turn with his set knowing that atleast 1/8 limpers would be holding an ace and bet the turn for him so he could c/r his set. So no set for him. Most likely A-weak or flushdraw. Definitely raise this and then fold to a three bet.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
I see little reason to raise this preflop after 5 limpers and facing loose blinds. Suited, I do it cause it plays better multiway. Offsuit, all the 78s type hands are gaining implied odds against me and will make fewer mistakes postflop.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Your logic is faulty. Their implied odds don't change at all. However, their direct odds make it favorable for you to charge them now. It is true that they won't make as many mistakes, but they will pay you off correctly drawing to their outs. That is good too. Try it out, plug 5 limping hands into Pstove and compute your equatiy.

Here I'll do three:


Hand 1: 21.0309 % [ 00.20 00.01 ] { AQo }
Hand 2: 20.4265 % [ 00.20 00.00 ] { 66 }
Hand 3: 10.4975 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { 87s }
Hand 4: 05.8367 % [ 00.05 00.01 ] { A7o }
Hand 5: 20.0051 % [ 00.20 00.00 ] { J8s }
Hand 6: 22.2032 % [ 00.22 00.00 ] { K4s }

OMG, K4s is the best hand. still with more than 1/6 eq, you are served to raise.
Hand 1: 29.0741 % [ 00.29 00.00 ] { AQo }
Hand 2: 13.0854 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { 66 }
Hand 3: 14.1821 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { 87s }
Hand 4: 07.0412 % [ 00.07 00.01 ] { 65o }
Hand 5: 21.2543 % [ 00.20 00.01 ] { J8s }
Hand 6: 15.3629 % [ 00.15 00.00 ] { 33 }

Clearer here, but none of your cards are gone.

Hand 1: 23.0640 % [ 00.22 00.01 ] { AQo }
Hand 2: 10.5298 % [ 00.09 00.01 ] { A3s }
Hand 3: 20.0305 % [ 00.20 00.00 ] { T7s }
Hand 4: 21.4472 % [ 00.21 00.01 ] { KJo }
Hand 5: 13.5367 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { J8s }
Hand 6: 11.3918 % [ 00.11 00.01 ] { 33 }

Still a raise.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
Your logic is faulty

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't just calling with AQo in that situation right out of HPFAP?

[Piiop]

CSC,

When you do these calcs, try using a range of hands for the limpers instead of specific hands. PokerStove is great because it allows you to do exactly that. It takes a little longer to get the numbers, but it's worth it and correctly applies to the situation.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
Typical player would not bet out the turn with his set knowing that atleast 1/8 limpers would be holding an ace and bet the turn for him so he could c/r his set. So no set for him. Most likely A-weak or flushdraw. Definitely raise this and then fold to a three bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a player who will only 3 bet you if you're drawing dead this is probably ok, but that defination doesn't apply to a lot of online players.

Against an unknown i'd call the turn and raise/bet any non heart river.

lf

[Victor]

raise pf. after reading some writing and some sims by fekali i am convinced raising hands like aq and ak as the best way preflop even in super loose games.

otherwise i call down.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your logic is faulty

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't just calling with AQo in that situation right out of HPFAP?

[/ QUOTE ]


as good as HPFAP is, it has some questionable stuff in it

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
CSC,

When you do these calcs, try using a range of hands for the limpers instead of specific hands. PokerStove is great because it allows you to do exactly that. It takes a little longer to get the numbers, but it's worth it and correctly applies to the situation.

[/ QUOTE ]


in general I agree, but in this case I think he was generous in giving the limpers good hands, which means his equity will probably be even slightly higher

[ggbman]

I dunno man, i hate posting when i am drunk. We didn't raise preflop because??? We have a serious equity edge, lets charge everyone now. CSC's post was right on, they will have their odds to draw, but you have have the best hand now.

You shouldnt make more mistakes postflop just because you push your equity esges. As for pstflop, i dunno, i think i am popping and folding a 3 bet. There are a ton of aces that the SB will bet here, and i dont think he checks the flop with a flush draw. i will reevaluat ethis when i am sober.

[Kurwood Derby]

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

[sthief09]

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

[afish]

This is a bad justification for limping that comes out of HPFAP. The main reason to limp preflop is so you can get someone to bet into you on the flop, and you can raise to clear the field. I believe Sklansky has clarified that that is the reason to limp. In my opinion, the value of limping is much less than charging junk an extra bet preflop.

[sthief09]

and yeah, how would you explain T9s being ranked higher than 88 and 98s higher than 77 if the book is gospel

[sthief09]

good drunk post

[amulet]

i raise preflop. and depending on the opponent, i call down or fold. there are a lot of ways to be behind, but if you call you will see by his response if he was taking advantage of a scary board or has a big hand. vs a tight player i fold. i think you are probably beat, given how many saw the flop and that he lead into a huge field..

[Jeffage]

Look, I understand I likely have the best hand with AQ. With 2 limpers, I'm raising. Three sure. Four, possibly. 5 or more...nah, I'll look at a flop. Why double the size of the pot on a hand that doesn't play well multiway when I know we're seeing the flop 8 ways? I'm not getting that much value there and it has postflop disadvantages.

I'm not saying raising here is the worst play in the world. I just don't think it's optimal. Leave it to me to turn a run-of-the-mill hand into the preflop debate of the century.

Jeff

[Kurwood Derby]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your logic is faulty

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't just calling with AQo in that situation right out of HPFAP?

[/ QUOTE ]


as good as HPFAP is, it has some questionable stuff in it

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.asiancollage.com/Europe/Aran%20Islands/images/inismeain%20donkey%20portrait.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]


http://www.kino-passau.de/Archiv/Filme2/o_s/bilder/suck_my%20_dick.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, bet thats about the size of it.

[Kurwood Derby]

[ QUOTE ]
Look, I understand I likely have the best hand with AQ. With 2 limpers, I'm raising. Three sure. Four, possibly. 5 or more...nah, I'll look at a flop. Why double the size of the pot on a hand that doesn't play well multiway when I know we're seeing the flop 8 ways? I'm not getting that much value there and it has postflop disadvantages.

I'm not saying raising here is the worst play in the world. I just don't think it's optimal. Leave it to me to turn a run-of-the-mill hand into the preflop debate of the century.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats because you happen to be absolutely correct and its beyond the comprehension of these donkeys as to why that's so. Ed Miller tells then to raise all their marginal hands and they're all getting their butts greased up good for him.

[Bascule]

Wow, great analysis.

[ QUOTE ]
You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi SA125:

You need to reread HPFAP again and in the "Loose Games" section you will discover this paragraph:

[ QUOTE ]
There is a bit of a two-edged sword here. If you’re playing against extremely terrible opponents, it’s hard not to raise with pretty good hands because even though you’re costing yourself money on the later streets, your’re gaining so much before the flop because your hand is usually so much better than theirs. In other words, if people are coming in with absolutely everything, you have got to raise with an AQ simply because your hand is so much better on average than so many of the other players.


[/ QUOTE ]

So as to whether a raise is correct with the ace-queen offsuit depends on the players who have entered the pot. Without being there, I would say that in general at the $20-$40 limit, you're probably better off just calling, but in some games a raise will clearly be correct. (And if your ace-queen was suited, a raise would always be correct for some additional reasons I won't address here.)

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Fish:

See my post above and you will see exactly what HPFAP says.

Best wishes,
mason

[Drontier]

I raise AJ here without even thinking. Is this wrong?

[Dominic]

[ QUOTE ]
20-40 game on PP. I have AQo on the button. 5 people limp. I limp. The SB and BB come. 8 to the flop (good game). Flop is 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (I have no hearts). Everyone checks. The turn is the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Now the SB bets and everyone folds to me. SB is unknown. Your play?

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

raise and call on river, if SB bets. If you're re-raised on turn, same thing. If he calls and checks river...I'd bet for value.

All of this assumes no heart on river....

[amulet]

mason, most games have changed so much in the last several years. 20/40 now has a lot of bad players, and i think most games now meet the criteria described in the above paragraph. while i understand the raise is game specific/opponent(s) specific, do you think i am incorrect in thinking more often then not in todays games the raise is warranted? thank you.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi amulet:

You may be correct but it doesn't matter. Your decision should be made based on the specific game that you are in. If it just happens to be that you are correct, then you will be raising most of the time in this situation.

One thing for sure. With all the new players, the games are better than they have ever been. Hopefully they'll stay like this for a long time.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Jeffage]

IMO, yes.

Jeff

[Jeffage]

Mason,

Thanks for the response.

[ QUOTE ]
In other words, if people are coming in with absolutely everything, you have got to raise with an AQ simply because your hand is so much better on average than so many of the other players.


[/ QUOTE ]

While this game was good, 8-way pots for one bet were not typical (and pretty much aren't typical for any online midlimit game). I also think, while these players are loose, "absolutely anything" is probably a stretch (ie. they aren't coming with K6o). I think raising or calling preflop here is close, but I still prefer my line with this many limpers in the game I was in. Though it's been a good discussion b/c I would virtually never have considered raising AQo in this spot after 5 limpers before this thread. Thanks for taking the time.

Jeff

[Jeffage]

I raised the turn. If the turn wasn't a heart, I just call, but I didn't want to give him a cheap walk if he had a 4-flush. Without the flush draw being out, raising wouldn't make sense b/c it's a situation where he either has a worse ace, trips or a bluff.

In this case, I raised but I kind of think a call might be better. I was planning on folding to a 3-bet, but he just called. The river bricked off. He checked, I bet and he called. He showed Q7o and MHING. So obviously...

I should have raised preflop. /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Jeff

[dopp16]

i don't like the raise preflop, i think limpin against 8 players is probably optimum

[SA125]

Thanks for the reply Mason. There was a thread not that long ago about the same situation (like always)where I did go back to it.

I was referring to the part where calling is correct, like you mentioned, because the OP didn't say the other players were horrible or limped with any two cards.

I think the case should be made that, rather than just the amount of equity AQ has there, having late position with it makes raising the correct play. Regardless of how good the players are when there's that many of them in.

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply Mason. There was a thread not that long ago about the same situation (like always)where I did go back to it.

I was referring to the part where calling is correct, like you mentioned, because the OP didn't say the other players were horrible or limped with any two cards.

I think the case should be made that, rather than just the amount of equity AQ has there, having late position with it makes raising the correct play. Regardless of how good the players are when there's that many of them in.

[/ QUOTE ] agreed

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi SA125:

Here's where your thinking is going wrong. If you raise with the ace-queen, your raise will show a profit. However, the question is if you don't raise with ace-queen, will your increased after the flop expectation now make up for the positive expectation that you give up before the flop.

Best wishes,
Mason