folding when you know you're beat, but the pot is too big [Archive]

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09-26-2005, 07:03 PM

are you supposed to fold these hands when you pretty much know you're beat? I guess I don't have the discipline to do that.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, CO raises, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 3-bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
MP2 bets, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (12.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
MP2 bets, CO folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
2 folds, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, 5 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (14.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

Both hands the board just gets worse and worse. I can't see any hands I'm beating judging by the preflop and flop play. I know I should fold, but am I able to do it in such a big pot? I'd rather lose one big bet than lose the whole pot of course. However, there are no hands I can legitimately beat unless on some rare occassion these guys are putting moves on me, which I highly doubt.
Anyways thanks for the input.

newhizzle

09-26-2005, 07:09 PM

i think you are ahead in hand 1 a decent amount of the time, CO is out and it looks like he was looking for a diamond, MP2 could be overplaying any ace because of the 3-flush board

hand 2 does not look as promising, i dont think i am folding here either though

also both of these hands are read dependent

also in hand 1 i think im 3-betting the flop, if MP2 caps or raises the turn it tells us a bit more

09-26-2005, 07:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think you are ahead in hand 1 a decent amount of the time, CO is out and it looks like he was looking for a diamond, MP2 could be overplaying any ace because of the 3-flush board

hand 2 does not look as promising, i dont think i am folding here either though

also both of these hands are read dependent

also in hand 1 i think im 3-betting the flop, if MP2 caps or raises the turn it tells us a bit more

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks appreciate the feedback.
In hand 1, I was definitely thinking about re raising, but that's just building a pot for the flush draw. I was ready to stick it on the turn, then check through on the river if no scare card. However, I then felt that guy leading out again on the turn had a lot strength and I was still behind so I just played it passively. Sometimes just too confused, and end up just calling down.

Nick C

09-26-2005, 08:13 PM

It's not such a good sign when your turn checkraise gets 3-bet in the second hand, but I don't actually know you're beat in either of these.

In Hand 2, there's only one way Villain can have AA and one way he can have JJ, but I start worrying about those hands when Villain 3-bets the turn (along with a TT hand that Villain played optimistically on the flop, and also KQ can't be completely ruled out). And it's unfortunate too that AK outdrew you on the river.

Anyway, though, against a 2/4 unknown, I wouldn't fold Hand 1 or Hand 2.

Edit: Well, actually, in Hand 2, things do look very bleak on the river, I'll admit. I might make the crying call, but unless Villain is a LAG, it's hard to see what you beat anymore that he 3-bet with preflop.

sy_or_bust

09-26-2005, 09:19 PM

You played these hands poorly. In hand 1 either fold or 3-bet the flop. With a decent read you can fold immediately. Calling sucks because you get whipsawed by a hand you haven't defined as better or worse.

The turn checkraise in hand 2 is awful. If you think you're still ahead, bet the turn.

09-26-2005, 11:20 PM

i agree with most of what's been said, but i'd fold hand 2.
i also have problems on 3 flush flop reads, most 2/4's bet that Ad the same way as a low made flush-
i'd 3-bet the flop then bet any blank turn/fold to a diamond.

Hand 2 i agree that AK most likely caught up, but even donks dont 3-bet pf with less then AK/AQ/KK. this is a spot where your read doesnt have to be spot on, youre just way behind.

09-27-2005, 03:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You played these hands poorly. In hand 1 either fold or 3-bet the flop. With a decent read you can fold immediately. Calling sucks because you get whipsawed by a hand you haven't defined as better or worse.

The turn checkraise in hand 2 is awful. If you think you're still ahead, bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mainly when I play these hands, I am looking at the big picture, I want to play with a plan. So take that in consideration for my thought process:

hand 1,
3 betting on the flop accomplishes what? it builds a pot for the flush draw. Like I said, I was ready to raise the turn, but then changed my mind because I "felt" he had a strong hand, not a flush but 2 pair just by the speed of his betting, because I felt he was betting rapidly in order to force a flush draw to fold. So if I 3 bet the flop, I take control of the hand. But what if he caps and then bets out on the turn? Now you've created a big pot with no draw and a naked pair of aces. I guess I should have folded the flop then? However, if he has a smaller 2 pair, I may have "other" outs as another diamond where he may check through to get a free showdown, also I have as many as 6-9 outs, 9 outs if he has A3, however some of these outs puts out the 4th diamond on board.

hand #2
I thought I was ahead that's why I check raised on the turn. I wanted to get an extra big bet, against a possible AK, because I don't think he would raise me again on the turn with that hand, but I KNEW he would bet the turn if I had checked to him. I am trying to maximize the value of my hand, by getting one more big bet. When I check raised him, I didn't expect him to re raise me if he had AK, so now I was getting worried about AA, or JJ. With the Q on the river, now I know I am totally beat. There is NOTHING i can absolutely beat. His VPIP is 70%+ and he seems straightforward and over aggro with some good hands.
I would like to know why I played these hands poorly for future reference. I would like to know for hand #2, why betting out on the turn is the best play. What would you do if he raised the turn? Would you re raise? And what if he caps it?
If he raises you on the turn, and you call down I guess the number of bets won is the same as my willingness to check raise and hope he just calls my check raise. However, if you bet out on the turn he may not raise, and now you've lost one big bet that you could've earned if he had bet for you.
Anyways, thanks for your input.

thesharpie

09-27-2005, 08:49 AM

I raise the flop in hand 1, sometimes you might knock out all lone diamonds, although unlikely, . There are other hands you'd like to knock out that'll give your hand a better chance of holding up if a diamond doesn't fall. I also don't want to be just calling down in this hand and I'd rather get capped on the flop than 3 bet on the turn.

Hand 2 I like the turn checkraise, there are only 2 ways he can have a set and ace king seems the most likely hand, and he probably won't raise with that but will definitely bet it.

sy_or_bust

09-27-2005, 09:10 AM

First of all, you need reads, and if you had them you should include them.

In the first hand you never had a clue what you were up against, and any flush/big draw/2-pair is going to jam the flop behind your cold-call. If you're going to play, you have to 3-bet immediately (sometimes this gets it HU with a weaker ace+draw or worse) or wait for the turn. Both of these are risky, and require some knowledge of your opponents. Against typical players, there is too great a likelihood that you are caught between a big draw and a better made hand to continue, IMO. I would fold.

The second hand is overkill. The turn c/r is great if you think you're ahead a lot, but it risks a 3-bet when you ought to fold. Simply betting, and calling down if raised, is much better if you have any doubts about Villain having a better hand. It sounds like you judged Villain to be an erratic player - it helps to know this in the original post.