Live 4/8 play along

[sean c]

As mentioned live 4/8(9 handed) great game six of the worst players who have ever sat at a poker table and two decent players. Villian in this hand loves to raise light pre flop any two suited Q10 off that sort of thing. He is pretty weak passive post flop and tries to play right even lays down a hand every once in a while. Everyone else in the hand are morons some have been in the game 24hrs or more it has been a wild game. The two decent players folded pre flop. This is my first play along post but I thought it would be the best way to get opinions on all streets pre flop was the only street I thought was easy.

Pre flop: Four players limp, 1 fold, CO(villian) raises, I am on the button with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif....

Note: SB( the other decent player) is holding his cards waiting to muck and BB would not fold her BB if you put a gun to her head.

[crunchy1]

3-bet.

[callmedonnie]

Since he likes to raise so light I think a reraise isn't bad. I seldom cold call raises preflop and I can understand why this might be an option here. I also don't usually three bet with A10 suited. I think I would prefer to raise though.

[sean c]

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3-bet.

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Easy 3-bet. I 3-bet and everyone including the BB called.

Flop(7 players 21sb): A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif BB bets(which means she has any two cards), four callers, CO raises, I....

[crunchy1]

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I....

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Vomit!

You say that he's weak/passive post-flop. What was your range for him at this point?

[DocMartin]

3Bet and let everyone chase broadway.

[sean c]

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I....

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Vomit!

You say that he's weak/passive post-flop. What was your range for him at this point?

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He had no problem capping a real hand in this game so i kind of excluded AA,KK and AK maybe AK but I think he would have capped pre flop with it. I really thought QJ a weak suited ace or a piece of the board with a broadway draw he did bet his draws pretty hard post flop besides that he was weak/passive so I should have added that to my read of him but this was the range I put him on. The BB would bet any two so I wasn't really giving him credit for a monster just yet.

[sean c]

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3Bet and let everyone chase broadway.

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Of course folding isn't an option so its between calling and 3-betting. Anyone prefer calling over 3-betting?

[crunchy1]

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Of course folding isn't an option so its between calling and 3-betting. Anyone prefer calling over 3-betting?

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I think it's between folding and 3-betting. Calling here sucks big donkey balls. The last thing that you want to do is let everone else in for one more small bet in an already huge pot. If you think there's a reasonable chance that you're ahead right now you need to protect your hand in this pot - or at least get as much value from it as possible.

That being said - and depending on how passive these players are - if you're behind now you probably have little chance to improve. Like as low as 2 outs (and that's including the backdoor flush draw). Unfortunately - if there's a high enough probability that you're behind - you just don't have the odds to continue and that might make this a fold.

I prefer calling here actually. I'd be looking to raise the turn if a safe card comes. If a K, Q, or J comes and a lot of action comes your way, you have an easy fold. Now if a safe card hits it'll likely be checked to the CO who will bet, now your raise makes it unprofitable for anyone with just a Q or a J to call. Where as on the flop when theres 31sb in the pot after you raise, calling 2sb more is profitable.

I also think with your read of the CO, QJ is a possibility. But so is Ax, KQ, KJ, or KT. He might even like his odds enough to raise with QT or JT. So in that range, I wouldn't fear his hand too much at this point.

I agree, I call the flop. 2 reasons: Waiting until the turn when our equity improves + getting a better read on the BB.

My big question is if a safe card comes on the turn and we raise the CO, what happens if the BB or CO 3-bets us? Do we call hoping for the FH and fold the river UI?

[Dagger78]

In the game the OP described it would be a Crime to Fold this hand unless we see a Q or J. You probably have the best hand, serveral people are on Broadway draw which they won't fold. The only hand the CO has that worries me given his description is TT, and since we can see 2 of those I'm not too worried about it. Any other hand that beats us now would be been capped preflop. The BB could have any two cards so I'm not worried about her. I'd 3 bet for value here and you might even be able to take a free card if a Q or J comes of on the turn (if you want).

[sean c]

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Of course folding isn't an option so its between calling and 3-betting. Anyone prefer calling over 3-betting?

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I think it's between folding and 3-betting. Calling here sucks big donkey balls. The last thing that you want to do is let everone else in for one more small bet in an already huge pot. If you think there's a reasonable chance that you're ahead right now you need to protect your hand in this pot - or at least get as much value from it as possible.

That being said - and depending on how passive these players are - if you're behind now you probably have little chance to improve. Like as low as 2 outs (and that's including the backdoor flush draw). Unfortunately - if there's a high enough probability that you're behind - you just don't have the odds to continue and that might make this a fold.

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Wow I was giving myself twice as many outs if behind and never considered folding. If you exclude AA and KK from his range which I did I feel I have plenty to continue and yeah I felt like there was a slim chance I held the best hand.

[mtdoak]

Cold call. 3 betting isn't going to isolate here. If this were offsuit, this would be an easy muck.

[mtdoak]

..Pump dat pot. I'm raising and capping.

[sean c]

Happydaz these were pretty much my thoughts.

Flop(7 players 21sb): A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif BB bets, four calls, CO raises, I call and everyone else calls.

Right or wrong I called because I felt like everyone would check to the CO if a blank fell on the turn and I would raise giving me a better chance to protect my hand if I was ahead. No one call/3-bet which gave me a glimmer of hope that I still might have the best hand.

Turn(7 players 17.5bb): 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif checked to the CO who bet, I....

[Piiop]

You gotta raise now.

[crunchy1]

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Wow I was giving myself twice as many outs if behind and never considered folding. If you exclude AA and KK from his range which I did I feel I have plenty to continue and yeah I felt like there was a slim chance I held the best hand.

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If you're behind to one player already how many of your 4 remaining Ace or Ten outs do you think are left in the deck (think about the other 6 players in the pot). The problem is that likely those other players are also trying to improve on their cards that paired so it's much more likely that you're hand is not going to improve from flop -> showdown (and I'll grant you that it's also not likely for them to improve). Thus, it really becomes a question of how likely it is that you're ahead right now. Against a passive player who's raising a full field I don't think you're in great shape. Also, given your descriptions of the players and the game in general I don't really think that a 3-bet is folding anyone - do you?

[crunchy1]

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You gotta raise now.

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I agree. That's about the best turn card you could've asked for.

[winky51]

Ok my 2 cents. If you think 3 small bets are going to eliminate the other super fish your wrong. Some might have the open ended, some might have the gut. If you know for certain that they will fold then raising the flop is good. Otherwise I would wait till the turn to raise and just flat call the flop. Many fish like players like seeing "just one mroe card". Mr. aggressive does not have the straight. If he did he would wait till Ms. BB bets the turn, everyone chases, then he raises. There is no flush draw so his straight would be safe. You said he is only half a nincompoop so I feel this would be his train of thought. Now the others are chasing. You up against probably 8-12 outs to beat you. I would wait for the turn and slam them with a double big bet if it does not get hairy.

So if you know they will fold raise the flop.

If you know most won't fold wait for the turn.

[crunchy1]

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Some might have the open ended...

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What two cards make an open-ended straight draw on an AKT flop?

[sean c]

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Wow I was giving myself twice as many outs if behind and never considered folding. If you exclude AA and KK from his range which I did I feel I have plenty to continue and yeah I felt like there was a slim chance I held the best hand.

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If you're behind to one player already how many of your 4 remaining Ace or Ten outs do you think are left in the deck (think about the other 6 players in the pot). The problem is that likely those other players are also trying to improve on their cards that paired so it's much more likely that you're hand is not going to improve from flop -> showdown (and I'll grant you that it's also not likely for them to improve). Thus, it really becomes a question of how likely it is that you're ahead right now. Against a passive player who's raising a full field I don't think you're in great shape. Also, given your descriptions of the players and the game in general I don't really think that a 3-bet is folding anyone - do you?

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Crunchy these are all very good points and no a flop 3-bet would not have folded a soul. I felt the only reason to 3-bet the flop would be for value and I was unsure if I had enough of a hand to do so.

[sean c]

Turn(7 players 17.5bb):2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif checks to CO who bets, I raise, everyone else folds, CO 3-bets I call.

Okay this sucks now I'm almost positive I'm drawing based on my read of the CO after seven hours of play and I lost all my dead money. I still think raising is correct. One other turn question if the 2 had been of another suit does this change anything?

River(2 players 23.5bb): is an offsuit blank CO bets, do I make the crying call or not?

[callydrias]

Villain needs to have KT/AQ/AJ or less just 4% of the time to make this call correct. You're definitely good that often. Call.

Well, I've never advocated a fold with such a strong hand in such a monster pot, but I'll do it here. Dump it on the river if you're that confident of the read on the CO. (This is much like the simultaneous discussion going on now about the KT s - regardless of pot size, there's nothing this unimaginative player has that you can beat.) Playing with him for 7 hours should be plenty - unless you think there's an off chance he might play KT this way.

I like the turn raise regardless of the spade. And I'm fine with you calling the 3-bet w/out the spade, just for our odds of drawing to a FH.

Here's a thought - is he on AK enough times here that we just call when the last ace hits on the river? I'd hate to be 3-bet after thinking our FH was good. (Obviously we raise when the T comes instead.)

[callmedonnie]

I can't fold this.

I can't fold it online. But I might be able to live, if the read is really that good. Sometimes, though, I end up calling these sorts of pots just to give me peace of mind so I can sleep without worrying I made a bad laydown, even if it's less than 4 % chance.

[deucesevenoff]

sean, this wouldn't happen to have been at Foxwoods last Saturday would it? The table sounds pretty similar to one I was at last Saturday.

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I can't fold this.

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i'd 3-bet pf to see if he caps (presumably JJ+ & AK) (don't think you give villian enough credit to miss a pf bet to disguise his hand)
would've raised the flop but now agree more with waiting till the turn to make gutshots unprofitable
& call for sanity- ahead way more then 4% of the time, i'm expecting to see AQ AJ KT overplayed. QJ/AK sucks but pay it off.

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Turn(7 players 17.5bb):2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif checks to CO who bets, I raise, everyone else folds, CO 3-bets I call.

Okay this sucks now I'm almost positive I'm drawing based on my read of the CO after seven hours of play and I lost all my dead money. I still think raising is correct. One other turn question if the 2 had been of another suit does this change anything?

River(2 players 23.5bb): is an offsuit blank CO bets, do I make the crying call or not?

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I'm raising a deuce of any suit. The only reason to call the flop was to raise the turn. The /images/graemlins/spade.gif just makes it sweeter.

On the river I have to call. He probably has QJ, but I think the small possibility he has KT or is a moron makes this a call. I'm paying it off, I don't have that laydown in me on a pot this size.

[newhizzle]

i havent read any responses:

preflop i think this is a good spot for a cold-call, you have a good multiway hand and the pot is looking very multiway, i dont think there is any reason to 3-bet here, and by the way, villian is correct to raise any QT suited sort of thing here

[newhizzle]

i 3-bet the flop and hope for some folds

[newhizzle]

this is a blank turn, so raise

[newhizzle]

in a pot this big i think you have to call, its not likely you are ahead, but you are getting rediculous odds

[sean c]

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sean, this wouldn't happen to have been at Foxwoods last Saturday would it? The table sounds pretty similar to one I was at last Saturday.

[/ QUOTE ]

No this lovely game was played in the great state of Oklahoma(some prefer to call it mobilehoma which ever you prefer /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[sean c]

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i havent read any responses:

preflop i think this is a good spot for a cold-call, you have a good multiway hand and the pot is looking very multiway, i dont think there is any reason to 3-bet here, and by the way, villian is correct to raise any QT suited sort of thing here

[/ QUOTE ]

It was a QT off suit sort of thing 107 suited sort of thing but hey it was nice not being the table pre flop maniac for a change /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[newhizzle]

my bad i misread your original post, i still like cold-calling just because of the size of the field, but this makes me lean towards 3-betting

[crunchy1]

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Turn(7 players 17.5bb):2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif checks to CO who bets, I raise, everyone else folds, CO 3-bets I call.

Okay this sucks now I'm almost positive I'm drawing based on my read of the CO after seven hours of play and I lost all my dead money. I still think raising is correct. One other turn question if the 2 had been of another suit does this change anything?

River(2 players 23.5bb): is an offsuit blank CO bets, do I make the crying call or not?

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This is why I thought folding on the flop was a viable option. I'm not defending it as the best play but, I think it was an option. The problem on this hand is that you end up getting charged the maximum to draw and then don't get paid off in the end. It's also very possible on that board, against that many players that you're going to improve your hand to a second best hand.

Given your read on Villian I think that calling the turn may have actually been a better option. I think that for a passive player to raise the field and then bet out into 6 players a second time (on what is certainly a scary board to him if he's not holding QJ) should really be slapping you in the face that you're beat. At that point - when you KNOW that you're drawing - you might as well limp along hoping to improve and also allowing the rest of the field to trail along and hopefully pay you off if you hit on the river.