Suited Kings Poll

[private joker]

Mid-high player BoxTree and I had a discussion tonight. We both thought the following decision was super-easy. Problem was, we disagreed on what the decision should be.

FWIW, BoxTree plays 20/40 at Commerce, while I play 9/18. The games play a bit differently. But this situation came up at the 9/18, which is generally a very loose, juicy game. Multiple players to the flop, etc, horrible hands shown down, etc.

Preflop:

EP limps, MP limps, MP limps, CO limps, Button limps, SB raises. You're in the BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Poll #1: You don't know if there will be a limp-reraise, and you don't know if any of the limpers will now fold once the SB raised.

Poll #2: Assuming everyone will call and nobody will limp-reraise, so you're getting 13:1 immediate.

Also, assume no strong reads for any specific player, including the SB. And please don't just vote -- write a post explaining your reasoning.

[jgorham]

Call - it's a no brainer for both. Limp reraises really aren't that common. So I don't think you should ever really worry about them. Or at most maybe take one bet away from your odds. And K7s plays well enough to call getting 6:1 I would think, let alone 10-13:1.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i voted a call for both and i can't imagine ever folding here at a commerce 20/40 game.

and i'd call with a lot worse too.

the people who would vote fold often underestimate the other potential ways of winning other than a flush, mainly how often your K may be good. getting 13:1 it doesn't really have to be that often.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


the people who would vote fold often underestimate the other potential ways of winning other than a flush, mainly how often your K may be good. getting 13:1 it doesn't really have to be that often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget the added times (albeit rarely -- but even 1% might be significant) that you'll flop KKx, 77x, and K7x.

[jason_t]

These are super easy calls for me. A suited K plays fine multiway. We have a 10.9% chance of flopping a flush draw alone and our implied odds are fantastic in a large mulitway pot. Add to this the possibility of flopping a monster (I've done the math on this before in another thread that I can dig up if this issue becomes serious) and that sometimes hitting a K is good. Limp reraises are rare. All this makes both these call super easy.

[Evan]

I would call in both hands with 32s with 3 fewer limpers. Folding here blows.

[GuyOnTilt]

To give an idea of what I think, as a rule of thumb from the BB in raised pots against two opponents I call with most suited cards. Against three opponents I call with any two suited.

GoT

[billyjex]

both are super easy calls.

Easy calls. I would like to know which one of you who did NOT think they were easy calls, and the arguments for not thinking the decision was easy.

[Derek in NYC]

Im surprised to see so many people saying in both cases that it isn't close. I personally call in #2, and probably in #1, but I think #1 is closer.

There are two problems with a hand like K7s from the BB against a raise. First, preflop you're concerned about not closing the action, and thus getting considerably worse odds on your call. Second, you're concerned post-flop with the difficulty of playing a drawing/trap hand OOP in a raised pot.

The second concern here is by far the bigger of the two problems. In this raised pot, where you are OOP, it is quite conceivable that you could flop two hearts, but expect to get taken for a multi-bet ride on various streets. And you're not hitting to the nuts, unless the A heart also falls, and the board stays unpaired. Additionlly, there are about a million ways where you can hit a piece of the board and have just enough to peel (e.g., 5 outers), but there's no guarantee that you'll actually be able to peel for 1 bet. So K7s, absent a miracle flop, can be tricky to play.

So back to the preflop decision point. For me, #1 is much closer than #2, not because the postflop decisions will be different (they wont be), but because the hand to begin with is marginal and potentially troublesome. When you add in more problems to the hand like the possibility of a limp-reraise preflop, it basically makes an unattractive hand even worse.

BTW--K7s from the button is a totally different hand.

[istewart]

I think it's easy because if the button raised after a bunch of limpers you would clearly call. Here your position relative to the SB when you make a flush sucks but you can protect a pair of kings (or another vulnerable hand) a lot better.

[sy_or_bust]

I voted for easy calls in both spots. This doesn't mean they are perfect scenarios for K7s. Position relative to SB sucks if he'll bet most flops, and certainly things can still go sour preflop and postflop to cut into your odds. But I suspect none of this matters enough to contemplate a fold in this situation - K7s has way too much value in big, loose-passive pots. I'd call with a lot worse than K7s.

[PokerBob]

I'm calling J7s here, and likely worse.

[PTjvs]

Im not positive that J7s isnt a better HAND here than K7s.

jvs

[MN_Mime]

Not closing the action doesn't concern me here.

1) Without reads, only the EP really has a case for LRR.
2) You're only putting in 1 bet to see the flop.
3) If the action continues behind you, how many folds are you going to see? LRR discounts your high card outs but not your flush draw. I'm not sure that seeing a flop after an EP LRR can ever be -EV. You're likely going to close post-flop action after he raises a SB flop stab.

One thing to remember is that you're not facing AKs since you hold the K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, so your flush is unlikely to be dominated by PFR or LRR so you can limit their hands to big pocket pairs and holdings in other suits.

---

Being OOP against the PFR is more problematic but not as scary as you feel. Getting caught in multiway betting with any four flush is a GOOD problem and second nuts is a GREAT problem.

The peel scenarios are more situational and will probably depends upon whether the BFD is there or not. Facing a flop bet OOP with a small piece can be tricky. I'd be more inclined to peel (or raise?) hitting the 7 (where I can reverse dominate) than the K.

[onegymrat]

At first, I thought you were talking about K /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[Aces McGee]

Please tell us why. The only way this thread will be useful is if we hear from both sides.

I voted easy calls for both.

-McGee

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
Please tell us why. The only way this thread will be useful is if we hear from both sides.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, so far Derek is the only one to do so. I don't want to speak for BoxTree, so I'll let him post his arguments for it being an easy fold.

The reason I think it's a super-easy call have already been stated. You're getting more than enough odds just to flop 2 or more hearts, which you like. Even forgetting about the K or 7, you'll flop the second nut flush draw more than 1/14 times. I like your implied odds here too. I'm not too worried about reverse implied odds because I'd be able to play a K cautiously, getting away from it if the action heats up.

I also wouldn't mind hearing from Ed Miller. BoxTree says Ed would recommend folding, and I say he'd call. Maybe we should PM him...

[BoxTree]

Basically, I fux0red the math. I thought flush draws are flopped 6% of the time and not 11% of the time. That's a big difference.

So, yeah, from now on, this is an easy call. But I won't call 32s as easily as Evan will. Wow, man, wow.

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
I also wouldn't mind hearing from Ed Miller. BoxTree says Ed would recommend folding, and I say he'd call. Maybe we should PM him...

[/ QUOTE ]

I call no problem.

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
I also wouldn't mind hearing from Ed Miller. BoxTree says Ed would recommend folding if Ed also screws up the math and believes that he'll only flop a flush draw 6% of the time, and I say he'd call. Maybe we should PM him...

[/ QUOTE ]

[Bjorn]

If I thought that could get it heads up vs the SB i might be inclined to reraise here. But I guess these cats are loose enough to make that a lost cause so I'll just call.

But then again that's maybe just my overaggresive mr Hide side talking. (I blame ED MILLER!)

/Bjorn

[TripleH68]

I used to be leery of the K-weak kicker hands. Until I noticed my AJs raised preflop being beaten by K4s from the BB.

I think what makes this an easy call can be broken down mathematically. It is the combination of the preflop raiser not holding a king + if there is another king out chances are it is not suited and has poor kicker.

This hand is usually easy to play postflop, and you'll hit a lot of draws. Call in both situations. Note that I really don't think the situations are all that different, and that the first one is what will happen in real-life.