A fancy play I make against certian players. How stupid?

[brick]

feurinho78 just sat down and posted the BB.
He is a 59/37/2.45 and he likes to push me around.

I was planning to take this line when I raised preflop. I knew he would 3-bet preflop and bet every street.

How stupid?

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Brickster is SB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Brickster raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Brickster calls.

Flop: (6 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Brickster checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Brickster calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Brickster checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Brickster calls.

River: (6 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Brickster checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Brickster raises</font>, BB folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[ArturiusX]

If you think he can laydown, it might be a good play.

The only thing is, is the 7 a good card to do this on? I'd prefer an ace.

[brick]

I think he think I'm slow playing two pair. I don't think he thinks the 7 helped me.

[pyroponic]

Seems very expensive if it fails, is it really worth it? I would think that if you wanted to do this a check/raise on the turn accomplishes your objective for 1 BB less. Also you might have more folding equity because their effective odds are now less.

[sthief09]

even though he sucks, he's probably the last type of player I'd want to raise J high against out of position headsup. he's coming along, and he's going to try to take the pot away at some point.

[brick]

That's true. This is an easy fold PF without my super sneaky plan to check-raise the river no matter what.

[slik]

bluff raising the river with a higher frequency than normal is profitable against this type of opponent, but i would only smooth call preflop or perhaps even fold, especially if you know you're gonna be 3 bet.

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
That's true. This is an easy fold PF without my super sneaky plan to check-raise the river no matter what.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a terrible fold preflop.

[brick]

This player is a good hand reader, very agressive, and will put you to the test every hand.

[donger]

So just to clarify, are you saying fold pf or jiust smooth call? Situations like this have been puzzling me lately

[Vaftrudner]

I just love this! (But then I'm a degenerate gambler...) /v

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
So just to clarify, are you saying fold pf or jiust smooth call? Situations like this have been puzzling me lately

[/ QUOTE ]

In blind wars against an aggressive opponent, you really should be calling with any playable hand.

[sthief09]

I'm bad HU, so I don't know. raising just seems wrong. if you call he's going to raise, so I don't know fi that's better. personally, I'd fold because I know I won't play it well

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm bad HU, so I don't know. raising just seems wrong. if you call he's going to raise, so I don't know fi that's better. personally, I'd fold because I know I won't play it well

[/ QUOTE ]


exactly, this is something you told me at a 2p2 table and ive definitely tightened up against aggressive players in hte SB. definitely +EV

[ArturiusX]

Disregard my post, I thought hero was the BB, where its an easy call.

J9o is mathematically better than 50% of our villians possible holdings, doesnt this make it a blind steal hand?

[ QUOTE ]
feurinho78 just sat down and posted the BB.
He is a 59/37/2.45 and he likes to push me around.


[/ QUOTE ]

Funny. He likes to push me around too and I'm 23/16/2.5. Maybe it's not just us. Maybe he plays like that against everyone.

[ QUOTE ]
That's true. This is an easy fold PF without my super sneaky plan to check-raise the river no matter what.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that you planned to c/r the river BEFORE entering preflop?? That seems like a HUUUGE parlay IMO especially against this type of opponent.

[ QUOTE ]

This player is a good hand reader, very agressive, and will put you to the test every hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's such a good hand reader, aren't you afraid he will spot your bluff?

[deepsquat]

slightly O/T here but when an aggro opponent like this has position against us in the BB are we better off completing our marginal hands that we may raise with vs tighter opponents?

Basically is the startegy to be completing here with hands like J9o that we dont want to be 3bet with but are too strong to fold?

ty

[brick]

[ QUOTE ]


Are you saying that you planned to c/r the river BEFORE entering preflop?? That seems like a HUUUGE parlay IMO especially against this type of opponent.


[/ QUOTE ]
That's right. One the river the pot will be 7BB so he only has to fold 22% of the time and I show a profit.

I guess (like all other problems) it's just a question of how often he will fold the river.

[ QUOTE ]

If he's such a good hand reader, aren't you afraid he will spot your bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hopefully he spots the slowplayed K or two pair. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

J9o is mathematically better than 50% of our villians possible holdings, doesnt this make it a blind steal hand?

[/ QUOTE ]


unfortunately, nothing in this game is that simple. position is very important against this type of player

[rory]

fold preflop

[TheMetetron]

I love this guy. He's monster LAGgro and you really shouldn't be playing with him to your left. Change seats and/or tables.

He's like an ATM with position. He doesn't read hands well at all, he just hits the raise button a crapload. I'll cap top pair on the flop and turn against this guy all day long. Middle pair too on my good days.

[TheMetetron]

It is a huge parlay and I hate villians plan to c/r the river when he raised PF.

If you can play this against this guy, call. Otherwise, just fold. There's no shame in that.

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Are you saying that you planned to c/r the river BEFORE entering preflop?? That seems like a HUUUGE parlay IMO especially against this type of opponent.


[/ QUOTE ]
That's right. One the river the pot will be 7BB so he only has to fold 22% of the time and I show a profit.



[/ QUOTE ]

No because you are investing way more than 2 BB to make this play. You're investing 5 BB given your line. So it had better work close to 50% of the time. You're in really bad shape if villain checks behind unimproved small PPs / ace highs on the river.

[brick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Are you saying that you planned to c/r the river BEFORE entering preflop?? That seems like a HUUUGE parlay IMO especially against this type of opponent.


[/ QUOTE ]
That's right. One the river the pot will be 7BB so he only has to fold 22% of the time and I show a profit.



[/ QUOTE ]

No because you are investing way more than 2 BB to make this play. You're investing 5 BB given your line. So it had better work close to 50% of the time. You're in really bad shape if villain checks behind unimproved small PPs / ace highs on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you knew he was going to fold to the check-raise 30% of the time wouldn't you take this line every time?

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Are you saying that you planned to c/r the river BEFORE entering preflop?? That seems like a HUUUGE parlay IMO especially against this type of opponent.


[/ QUOTE ]
That's right. One the river the pot will be 7BB so he only has to fold 22% of the time and I show a profit.



[/ QUOTE ]

No because you are investing way more than 2 BB to make this play. You're investing 5 BB given your line. So it had better work close to 50% of the time. You're in really bad shape if villain checks behind unimproved small PPs / ace highs on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you knew he was going to fold to the check-raise 30% of the time wouldn't you take this line every time?

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell? Absolutely not! You're investing 5BB (3SB + 1SB + 1BB + 2BB) to win 4BB!

If it only works 30% of the time, your EV is:

(.3)(+4BB) + (.7)(-5BB) = 1.2BB - 3.5BB = -2.3BB

In order for you to break even, he must fold 55% of the time!

[brick]

[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely not! You're investing 5BB (3SB + 1SB + 1BB + 2BB) to win 4BB!

If it only works 30% of the time, your EV is:

(.3)(+4BB) + (.7)(-5BB) = 1.2BB - 3.5BB = -2.3BB

In order for you to break even, he must fold 55% of the time!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh crap. Thanks for setting me straight. The other poster said so and it didn't register. Yeah, now I see why this is a bad play. He may fold 30% of the time but not 55%.

Thread over.

[Derek in NYC]

If you can be counted on to get aggression from the BB, then wait until you have an edge (i.e., a hand that can showdown). I would check-fold J9 against this sort of opponent (i.e., who will raise a limp, or 3-bet a raise, and continuation bet every street).

As for your river checkraise, I think it never works against an opponent like this. He will call with any pair or ace high. Your river checkraise also filled no obvious draws, so it smells more like you're making a move than normal.

[Derek in NYC]

[ QUOTE ]
J9o is mathematically better than 50% of our villians possible holdings, doesnt this make it a blind steal hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

You cant steal against somebody who will auto threebet

[Derek in NYC]

Not that I'd try this, but if you're going to make a move on him with a marginal hand, what about completing from the SB, then three-betting his raise and leading the flop?

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely not! You're investing 5BB (3SB + 1SB + 1BB + 2BB) to win 4BB!
If it only works 30% of the time, your EV is:
(.3)(+4BB) + (.7)(-5BB) = 1.2BB - 3.5BB = -2.3BB
In order for you to break even, he must fold 55% of the time!

[/ QUOTE ]Oh crap. Thanks for setting me straight. The other poster said so and it didn't register. Yeah, now I see why this is a bad play. He may fold 30% of the time but not 55%. Thread over.

[/ QUOTE ]
Does he have to fold 55% of the time to make this a good play? Wouldn't that only be true if your only chance of winning the hand was to make him fold? J9 seems like a pretty good hand against a random hand. How about playing it preflop but only continuing on a favorable flop?

If so, is a preflop raise or a complete better?

On this hand you did not get a favorable flop. So check/fold looks good to me here.

[JohnnyHumongous]

[ QUOTE ]
This player is a good hand reader, very agressive, and will put you to the test every hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

so why does he suck? (according to sthief)

[brick]

Isn't is possible to be too agressive?

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This player is a good hand reader, very agressive, and will put you to the test every hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

so why does he suck? (according to sthief)

[/ QUOTE ]

Because brick's assessment of this guy is wrong.

He does suck and sthief is totally right.

His hand is permanently attached to the bet/raise buttons.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
This player is a good hand reader, very agressive, and will put you to the test every hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think feurinho is a good handreader at all, but he will put you to a test. I often take very passive lines against him, and in this hand I'd probably check-call, check-call, check-fold. I don't think the river checkraise will show enough profit against him in the longrun, because he seems to pay me off frequently with pretty marginal hands.

Rob

[brick]

whatever. I didn't say he was good. Maybe 'good hand reader' was too much credit, but I didn't say he was good.

[chio]

i don't get it, you're trying to bluff a loose maniac. what's even worse, he's not folding any pair or ace on the river, so you're spending 2 bets hoping he has (and folds) exactly Q high?