10/25 UB one pair hand

[Ulysses]

2400 effective stacks. I have been pretty active.

I open black KK UTG (85). Folded to BB (defineluck - relatively straightforward, decent) who calls.

Flop Js Qs 5d

He checks, I pot 180, he calls.

Turn (Js Qs 5d) 4d

He checks, I bet 400 (I often pot, often underbet here), he checkraises pot to 1740.

[ClaytonN]

Is a straightforward player capable of doing this with AQ or QdXd? It really looks to me like you're against either a really strong hand here or air. Leaning towards strong hand because he wants to protect against your possible outs on the drawheavy board (like counterfeiting w/ 4).

[Allinlife]

calls.

his looks too much like a FE play...I also think relatively-straightforward player would either bet out or checkraise with 2 pair/set on that board.

[ClaytonN]

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I also think relatively-straightforward player would either bet out or checkraise with 2 pair/set on that board.

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One has to be more capable than the other, otherwise he wouldn't be straightforward, right?

[tdarko]

when you say "relatively" straightforward does this mean you have seen him get out of line before but not often? so could he make a move at you with a big draw?

[KaneKungFu123]

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I also think relatively-straightforward player would either bet out or checkraise with 2 pair/set on that board.

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standard is turn chk-raise.

[Ulysses]

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when you say "relatively" straightforward does this mean you have seen him get out of line before but not often? so could he make a move at you with a big draw?

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Very straightforward = you pretty much always know what he has based on his bet sizes and actions. ie: check-call = draw or weak-ish hand. Bet = top pair or better. Raise if a flush or straight gets there = flush or straight.

Tricky = tricky.

Relatively straightforward = in between those two, much closer to straightforward.

[Ulysses]

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or air.

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I'm virtually never against air here. Very rarely against a tricky player and never against a pretty straightforward player.

[tdarko]

you are obviously up against something.

what about A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif?

[okayplayer]

The hand that jumps out at me from the action is 54s. I think that it may be possible for a AQ/KQd hand to c/r the turn, but I would expect a c/r all in. The fact that he leaves ~$400 for the river makes me think he has atleast 2 pr. I would generally muck, unless I had been seen getting out of line and/or continuing on the turn with air.

[ClaytonN]

Flop: He check calls
Ideas: Since he's relatively straightforward, logic would say that he would likely bet out a strong hand here or checkraise big as opposed to just check-calling. On this slightly scary board OOP he would do best to get his money in as quick as possible with something like QJ, JJ, or 55. But he just check calls. This leaves something more along the lines of overcard+pair, or a big draw, or air (very rare).

Turn - big checkraise
Ideas - Okay, villain just woke up and has now basically tied himself to the pot. He bet strong, which is indicative of a big hand, but it seems contrary to his action on the flop. The 4d appears to be a blankish card, but it adds a few more possibilities to villain's repertoire of hand selections given his turn action. At this point I would put villain on a good queen (like KQ or AQ), a strong draw (like 76spades, 32spades, or 86spades), or something like A2spades or A3 spades. And there's also the possibility of air (but rare).

Once again, there are numerous hands that villain is capable of playing the turn with, especially given flop action. Villain could have gotten tricky with QJ/JJ/55, but c'est la vie. Many more hands can play the turn that way which KK dominates. Another thing to consider is your active image which would warrant villain to go strong with something like a big queen.

So, push.

(this is obviously contrary to what I previously said but I sat back and thought about it for a little while)

[KaneKungFu123]

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Flop: He check calls
Ideas: Since he's relatively straightforward, logic would say that he would likely bet out a strong hand here or checkraise big as opposed to just check-calling.

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my experience says otherwise. i think straight-foward is chk-rse turn.

[Ulysses]

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The fact that he leaves ~$400 for the river makes me think...

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That should mainly just make you think he hit the raise pot button.

[ClaytonN]

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ie: check-call = draw or weak-ish hand. Bet = top pair or better.

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based on these observations, Kane, again I can't see a strong hand (ie set/twopair) checkraising the turn here from a relatively straightforward player. It would have bet out the flop, or possibly checkraised.

[Ulysses]

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ie: check-call = draw or weak-ish hand. Bet = top pair or better.

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based on these observations, Kane, again I can't see a strong hand (ie set/twopair) checkraising the turn here from a relatively straightforward player. It would have bet out the flop, or possibly checkraised.



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OK. I did not list every combo. KKF is right. Check-call flop, check-raise turn is the most standard of all lines for a set from an unimaginative player. I do think that they are more likely to go for a checkraise on the flop when there is a flush draw, but since it is HU and I raised pre-flop, I can see a straightforward player w/ a set waiting until the turn.

[cero_z]

Hi D,

This is a tough fold, but a fold nonetheless, against the player you describe. I think you screwed this one up betting 400 on the turn, though (unless you were positive you'd call any size raise before you bet). You've found yourself in a tough position because of it.

I find myself in this situation quite a bit: the board is one where you can see your opponent having a draw, but he's straightforward, so a bluff is less likely, but your recent activity makes it more likely, so you're guessing again.

When the context is, "I've been pretty active," I think you should play this one of 2 ways on the turn:

1) Check behind, even with all the draws and everything, and evaluate the bet that's almost sure to come your way on the river. I don't like this line much with a hand as big as KK, because it leaves a lot on the table. But, it does pick up a lot more bluffs when a blank falls, since they don't give you credit for much.

2) Bet biggish (pot in this case), and be ready to get it all in on this round. This is better when you're against a somewhat aggressive player through a maniac--the more agg your opponent, the better this play is.

I'll bet you anticipated a checkraise before you bet the turn; when they think you're a little out of line, you can just feel these ones.

[ClaytonN]

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OK. I did not list every combo. KKF is right. Check-call flop, check-raise turn is the most standard of all lines for a set from an unimaginative player. I do think that they are more likely to go for a checkraise on the flop when there is a flush draw, but since it is HU and I raised pre-flop, I can see a straightforward player w/ a set waiting until the turn.

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This really puts me on the fence then. I think your image is huge here. I don't think it's out of villain's nature to checkraise you big here on the turn with something like top pair if you have a laggier image.

Furthermore (and maybe this is just me), but it seems like a strong draw would checkraise allin as opposed to 'raise pot', while a made hand would more likely 'raise pot'.

I think you felt villain was gonna checkraise the pot regardless of how much you bet on the turn if he had it, so you figured to save yourself 6bb's or so if your read was in fact correct that he had you beat on the turn.

[Ulysses]

I took all my time and almost folded, then decided that if he had two pair or a set, the two spades and two broadway cards on the flop would make it more likely that he play it fast there. I figured he probably had something like QTd and stuck the remaining 400 or 500 in. He called and my KK held up against his AQ. cero was right, I put myself in a bit of a tough spot here, but the combo of my slight show of weakness, my relatively lagginess in the session, and his check-call on the flush draw flop made me decide to play on here. If the flop were rainbow, I probably would have folded to his turn checkraise.

[technologic]

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2400 effective stacks. I have been pretty active.

I open black KK UTG (85). Folded to BB (defineluck - relatively straightforward, decent) who calls.

Flop Js Qs 5d

He checks, I pot 180, he calls.

Turn (Js Qs 5d) 4d

He checks, I bet 400 (I often pot, often underbet here), he checkraises pot to 1740.

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just to throw out some numbers on his possible holdings:

4.5-1 against if he has JQ
21-1 against if he's crafty mcgoo with a set

2-1 favorite with AQd
10-1 favorite with AQo
2-1 favorite against a big draw ie 89d, 89s, 67s
4.5-1 favorite against a regular draw

if he's got you beat, you're behind by a lot. if i were to think that it was a FE play as likely as a play of strength i would fold.

however, i'm not sure if a straight forward player usually plays with JQ oop. and i would think a straight forward player would probably lead with a set on a draw heavy board to have a better chance of pouring the money in the pot with effective stacks...no? i consider myself pretty unimaginative and straightforward and i'd lead out in that spot almost every time with a set.

i think i would call here, the play looks too suspicious here. given your somewhat laggish image, it seems more likely that villain is making a stand with a hand that has a good chance of being best and can draw out if it isn't. (ie AQd imo)

[technologic]

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I took all my time and almost folded, then decided that if he had two pair or a set, the two spades and two broadway cards on the flop would make it more likely that he play it fast there. I figured he probably had something like QTd and stuck the remaining 400 or 500 in. He called and my KK held up against his AQ. cero was right, I put myself in a bit of a tough spot here, but the combo of my slight show of weakness, my relatively lagginess in the session, and his check-call on the flush draw flop made me decide to play on here. If the flop were rainbow, I probably would have folded to his turn checkraise.

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agh you responded before i clicked my post button