Hand vs Sklansky

[Schneids]

Saw that dcifrths said I should post it, so ok, here goes, though I think it might be a pretty uninteresting hand:

$80/160, pretty sure we're 5 handed at this point. David has been playing for about 20 minutes and so far we are relatively encounterless (I can't recall if I made the nuts vs him before or after this, but either way, I don't really have much for an established image against him). Also, I haven't introduced myself and I assume he probably has me profiled as a typical overaggressive young internet player.

Anyway, DanDruff folds UTG, I raise in the CO with A8o, Sklansky 3-bets from the button, SB folds, and BK folds in the BB, I call.

Flop 983. I check and call. Turn 9 putting a flush draw out there. I bet, David calls. River jack, I bet and David calls.

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I haven't introduced myself and I assume he probably has me profiled as a typical overaggressive young internet player.


[/ QUOTE ]

What, you're not? /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[NLSoldier]

sounds like a good game.

[PokerBob]

are you folding to a river raise?

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
sounds like a good game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, DanDruff, BK, Schneids, and the David. I don't think there was a better game in the casino that night.

[Paluka]

I'm gonna guess that Sklansky had AK or TT.

[mike l.]

only way it couldve been better is if you had stood up while racking the chips and said "in! yo! FACE! oz!" and quit the game.

[J.A.Sucker]

I think David had QJ/JT soooted and you lost. He could have had AQ/AK, but I don't think so. Nice hand anyway.

[J.A.Sucker]

This is the correct play, of course. The final finishing move is to tell him to get his as$ back to the horse book.

[The Truth]

Funny stuff, how long are you guys out in vegas for? forever?


-blake

[skp]

Nice river bet given his turn call but I am not so sure that the turn donkbet is required.

Given that this is one of your first hands with him and you guys share no history, about the only hand that David may check the turn with is AA (which of course would work out right for you given your holding). But the point is that there is no fear of you giving out a free card by checking as the money is going in anyway.

Betting the turn has its problems:

1. He might fold an Ace high hand and you don't want that.

2. He might raise with a hand worse than yours. But that's not so bad if (as I suspect) you were planning on calling a raise. Come to think of it, perhaps that's the driving force behind your bet.

3. He has a better hand like TT and raises for value (I think he probably just calls your turn bet with AA or KK).

But overall, I want to play this hand for just 2 big bets after the flop and the way to do that is to checkcall turn and bet river.

There are no metagame considerations here because:

a. You have had no hands with him yet;

b. In about another 20 minutes, David would have figured out that this was not such a great game and would have hit the road. I say that not in a manner condescending to David. I am sure he can more than hold his own against you guys (or anyone on these boards), But he is by all accounts also a man who practices good game selection and hitting the road here is the money play.

By contrast, you young internet studs like poker challenges too much and lock horns frequently with tough opponents...I say that admiringly.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
b. In about another 20 minutes, David would have figured out that this was not such a great game and would have hit the road. I say that not in a manner condescending to David. I am sure he can more than hold his own against you guys (or anyone on these boards), But he is by all accounts also a man who practices good game selection and hitting the road here is the money play.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good read sir. He did just that. And said "enjoy my two hundred dollars guys" as he walked away.

[The Truth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
b. In about another 20 minutes, David would have figured out that this was not such a great game and would have hit the road. I say that not in a manner condescending to David. I am sure he can more than hold his own against you guys (or anyone on these boards), But he is by all accounts also a man who practices good game selection and hitting the road here is the money play.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good read sir. He did just that. And said "enjoy my two hundred dollars guys" as he walked away.

[/ QUOTE ]

At what point did you guys mention that you knew him?

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
b. In about another 20 minutes, David would have figured out that this was not such a great game and would have hit the road. I say that not in a manner condescending to David. I am sure he can more than hold his own against you guys (or anyone on these boards), But he is by all accounts also a man who practices good game selection and hitting the road here is the money play.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good read sir. He did just that. And said "enjoy my two hundred dollars guys" as he walked away.

[/ QUOTE ]

At what point did you guys mention that you knew him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Never.

I started a 150/300 holdem interest list and schneids got on the list. Sklansky arrived and joined the list shortly after. I was sitting playing 80/160 when he walked by. I asked him "how many players would you start a game with?" and he looked at me like "wtf are you talking to me for?" and I repeated myself and he coldly said 3 and walked away.

When he was in the 80 game he had a young black woman sitting behind him who he was explaining poker too. I thought that was interesting.

I introduced myself to him when I was there perhaps 6 months ago and he was cold and said "oh i don't really pay attention to people's names in the forum." Maybe just wasn't his day, who knows. Either way I know he doesn't give a [censored] who I am so meh.

I gotta give it to mason though, He went to the bellagio buffet with me, schneids and a friend 6 months ago and let us bounce stuff off him. That was cool.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
b. In about another 20 minutes, David would have figured out that this was not such a great game and would have hit the road. I say that not in a manner condescending to David. I am sure he can more than hold his own against you guys (or anyone on these boards), But he is by all accounts also a man who practices good game selection and hitting the road here is the money play.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good read sir. He did just that. And said "enjoy my two hundred dollars guys" as he walked away.

[/ QUOTE ]

At what point did you guys mention that you knew him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Never.

I started a 150/300 holdem interest list and schneids got on the list. Sklansky arrived and joined the list shortly after. I was sitting playing 80/160 when he walked by. I asked him "how many players would you start a game with?" and he looked at me like "wtf are you talking to me for what?" and I repeated myself and he coldly said 3 and walked away.

When he was in the 80 game he had a young black woman sitting behind him who he was explaining poker too. I thought that was interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]


Sklansky = Thomas Jefferson?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
b. In about another 20 minutes, David would have figured out that this was not such a great game and would have hit the road. I say that not in a manner condescending to David. I am sure he can more than hold his own against you guys (or anyone on these boards), But he is by all accounts also a man who practices good game selection and hitting the road here is the money play.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good read sir. He did just that. And said "enjoy my two hundred dollars guys" as he walked away.

[/ QUOTE ]

At what point did you guys mention that you knew him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Never.

I started a 150/300 holdem interest list and schneids got on the list. Sklansky arrived and joined the list shortly after. I was sitting playing 80/160 when he walked by. I asked him "how many players would you start a game with?" and he looked at me like "wtf are you talking to me for what?" and I repeated myself and he coldly said 3 and walked away.

When he was in the 80 game he had a young black woman sitting behind him who he was explaining poker too. I thought that was interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]


Sklansky = Thomas Jefferson?

[/ QUOTE ]

there are sooooo mnay ways i could go here, but i will leave it alone.

[The Truth]

[ QUOTE ]

When he was in the 80 game he had a young black woman sitting behind him who he was explaining poker too. I thought that was interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least strange. Maybe its phil iveys wife, from what I hear shes been getting busted up at .5-1 online and wants to improve /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-blake

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
a young black woman

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting, indeed!

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a young black woman

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting, indeed!

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought somebody would comment on that. It just isn't quite what I personally would have expected. Meh. Whether you think it's an integral part of the story doesn't matter. We don't yet live in a world where people don't think like that. Maybe I'm not helping the problem...but meh.

[Mikey]

David has KK QQ or AA

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
David has KK QQ or AA

[/ QUOTE ]

that's giving him way too much credit.

I think Schneids has got it here, DS is threebetting with hands that have showdown value. Also interpretting Schneids internet-player-with-a-bankroll image factors in as well.

I'd put DS on AK/AQ, 77-55 & TT

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
David has KK QQ or AA

[/ QUOTE ]

that's giving him way too much credit.



[/ QUOTE ]

what makes you say this? the top card pairing on the turn and schneids firing when it does would freeze an overpair IMHO. why not call down with a big pair here? IMO this kinda turned into a WA/WB situation.

[Dantes]

The obvious play is to never introduce yourself to sklansky (as a 2+2 reader/contributer/buyer of his books) regardless of whether or not you are playing in a game with him. Hard to believe a veteran of these boards wouldn't understand that.

As far as the hand, schneids played it in exactly the way I would expect sklansky to read his hand as an eight. I'm not saying I would have played it different but I doubt sklansky calls here with a worse hand very often.

[haakee]

You might want to work on your game selection.

[oreogod]

Im curious (as its DS we are talking about) do u fold to a river raise?

[Ezcheeze]

I'm about 95% confident you lost this hand. He's overly tight passive at limit hold em. I wouldn't even bet the river because with the J I don't see you getting called by A highs, though maaaaaybe AK.

[DcifrThs]

id think sklansky doesn't need the hands you all think he does to 3 bet what he would see as the likely fish at the table when the fish (you schneider) opens from the CO.

im thinking AK-AJ/ATs/KQs/AA-77/maybe 66.

flop is 98x, my line while talking to schneids was c'r the flop. if DS 3 bets check call the turn getting 7:1 w/ 5 outs. the problem as schneids pointed out was it kinda bloats the pot and puts money in if behind.

id say if DS calls and an A falls he loses some money (not too much though obviously, as thats the exact situation he's written about). he may also call down thinking schneider could be agro w/ JTs/QJs.

but i think OP's line may be the best here...id have c'red and i think that may be a mistake.

Barron

[Ezcheeze]

You shouldn't call the turn with (maybe) 5 outs getting 7:1. The only reason to call would be if you thought there was a significant chance you still have the best hand which vs. a Sklansky flop 3 bet and turn bet is about nil.

I think the check raise lead turn, or check raise call 3 bet check fold turn, or the actual line shneids took except he should check the river, are all good lines.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]

im thinking AK-AJ/ATs/KQs/AA-77/maybe 66.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you are against what you think is an overly-aggressive player who may be even more liberal in the cut-off, wouldn't you "defend" and isolate via your button with more than this? Would A10o, KQo, and KJs enter the picture, not to mention some other edgier suited connector holdings?

After all, you do have position.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

im thinking AK-AJ/ATs/KQs/AA-77/maybe 66.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you are against what you think is an overly-aggressive player who may be even more liberal in the cut-off, wouldn't you "defend" and isolate via your button with more than this? Would A10o, KQo, and KJs enter the picture, not to mention some other edgier suited connector holdings?

After all, you do have position.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, MY holdings would include those hands. but i dont know how low DAVID is willing to go.

Barron

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]

yes, MY holdings would include those hands. but i dont know how low DAVID is willing to go.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]


I bet David can limbo with the best of them...

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[andyfox]

"he looked at me like 'wtf are you talking to me for?'"

-Standard.

"I repeated myself and he coldly said . . ."

-Standard.

"he had a young black woman sitting behind him who he was explaining poker to"

-Standard.

"he was cold"

-Standard.

"Maybe just wasn't his day"

-Standard.

"gotta give it to mason though, He went to the bellagio buffet with me, schneids and a friend 6 months ago and let us bounce stuff off him."

-Standard.

They learned their good cop, bad cop routine from studying how Roosevelt and Churchill dealt with Stalin.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
"he looked at me like 'wtf are you talking to me for?'"

-Standard.

"I repeated myself and he coldly said . . ."

-Standard.

"he had a young black woman sitting behind him who he was explaining poker to"

-Standard.

"he was cold"

-Standard.

"Maybe just wasn't his day"

-Standard.

"gotta give it to mason though, He went to the bellagio buffet with me, schneids and a friend 6 months ago and let us bounce stuff off him."

-Standard.

They learned their good cop, bad cop routine from studying how Roosevelt and Churchill dealt with Stalin.

[/ QUOTE ]

very funny.

i met Mason and David in unison at the Rio when i was there for some 1/2 action side games at WSOP 1500Limit event. Ed was there as well and came to chill for a bit.

Mason seemed very kind and cordial and said to david (who was in teh midst of wandering around not too far from mason) "hey david, this is decipher this from the boards." to which david replied "oh ,ok" and proceeded to shake my hand and continue wandering. Mason and i chatted briefly and then he to departed on kind terms.

i'd heard some odd stories about the pair from various sources and it definately seems most of them are true.

Barron

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]

Mason seemed very kind and cordial and said to david (who was in teh midst of wandering around not too far from mason) "hey david, this is decipher this from the boards."

[/ QUOTE ]


Too bad Mason didn't say, "...this is Dee-sif-are-Tee-Aitch-Ess..."

Granted, that wouldn't've been standard.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[skp]

Yeah, there is little doubt that Mason is way more friendly than David. I have introduced myself to David twice now and both times I got a grunt that sounded like 'hello' as he kept on walking past me.

On the other hand, if he stoped to chat with every 2+2'er that runs into him in Vegas, he would have no time to do anything else...so, I understand where he is coming from.

[arkady]

some people do not enjoy being a "celebrity" and find it to be annoying and a waste of time. looks like DS might be one of those people.

[J.A.Sucker]

How about roulette?

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
are you folding to a river raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dunno, would have came down to feel as well as depending on the river card. On this river, probably. On most rivers, probably. Lots of feel involved though.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
Funny stuff, how long are you guys out in vegas for? forever?


-blake

[/ QUOTE ]

Were there Thursday evening through early Sunday. Think BK is planning on going back in a few weeks, I probably won't be going back for a few months because of school.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
or the actual line shneids took except he should check the river, are all good lines.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree checking the turn might be better. Then what, fold if he bets? That's where I wasn't so sure if I could do though it's probably the right play.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm about 95% confident you lost this hand. He's overly tight passive at limit hold em. I wouldn't even bet the river because with the J I don't see you getting called by A highs, though maaaaaybe AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, the Jack is a bad card for me if I'm trying to get an ace high payoff because of it making pairs for JT and QJ [and QT straight now] which I could be semibluffing. Think you might be right about checking the river.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
You might want to work on your game selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

I game select good online 99% of the time, so was willing to let it slide a bit in Vegas since it's such a rare trip for me and it's fun getting to play against famous players. Plus the main game was very good and was worth sticking it out for. Point taken though.

[Schneids]

I bet he calls I lose to his KK.

[skp]

No way you can checkfold the turn. David could easily bet any hand there on a 998x board when the flop was 98x.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
No way you can checkfold the turn. David could easily bet any hand there on a 998x board when the flop was 98x.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops I meant to say check the river after he calls the turn bet.

[JJNJustin]

The pair on the board keeps you from getting raised. If you check the river, he'd probably bet for value with KK. You'd almost have to call, especially when you didnt get raised on the turn. By betting yourself, more than likely you will only be called when you are beat, but not always. He might call with AK or AQ ok a small pocket pair, and since he might likely 3-bet what looks like a blind steal with these hands, it is just as or more likely he holds one of these hands. The real question is, what % of the time will he bluff bet a river with a hand you can beat. If he will bet only hands you cant beat and check down hands you can, then you are better off betting your own hand, with little fear of getting raised, although, when called, you are still a slight underdog to have the best hand, rather than check and call as an even bigger underdog, sincc he will not likely bet a worse hand. This is from his book Theory of Poker, on play on the river. It is a little more complicated than other straight forward plays, but I think it applies to your hand here on the river.

-j

[Kurwood Derby]

[ QUOTE ]
Would A10o, KQo, and KJs enter the picture, not to mention some other edgier suited connector holdings?

After all, you do have position.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.sni.srsd.mb.ca/images/Fishing/Big%20Fish.jpg

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
Mason seemed very kind and cordial and said to david (who was in teh midst of wandering around not too far from mason) "hey david, this is decipher this from the boards." to which david replied "oh ,ok" and proceeded to shake my hand and continue wandering. Mason and i chatted briefly and then he to departed on kind terms.

[/ QUOTE ]

I met Mason @ the Wynn and was really drunk. I was with a few 2+2ers and basically just came up to him while he was seated in a NL game and was like "hey i'm sponger blahhhh here with bfealahahahahhh other 2+2ers, we're all big fans" and just emarassed the crap out of myself and walked away.

Anyways, sorry to hijack the thread...

[SA125]

Sorry for the hijack but I ifnd it very interesting. Do you think he should have raised post flop and if so where?

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would A10o, KQo, and KJs enter the picture, not to mention some other edgier suited connector holdings?

After all, you do have position.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.sni.srsd.mb.ca/images/Fishing/Big%20Fish.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]


Far be it that I think that everything I say is always going to be 100% on the money, but it's downright ludicrous to believe it's a fishy play to 3-bet from the button with those holdings against someone who very easily can be raising lighter than that.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[NYplayer]

haven't read any responses but its an interesting hand. I like the flop and turn play. given his reaction you should check fold the river. when you bet the river you only do it for 2 reasons. to get a worse hand to call or a better hand to fold. The only worse hand that calls is AK and that's only a maybe. What better hands are folding? none. So check. If he has the balls to bet a worse hand he deserves the pot. But think about being in his shoes. He's probably checking behind all hands that you beat + some of the ones that beat you. If he bets this river he is doing it to get an extra bet out of you. 77 and 66 are checking behind. you can safely fold.

[Mikey]

if he had 77-55 or TT he'd have raised the turn.

Raising the turn = 2 bets and he can release if he gets reraised.

Call the turn and calling the river = 2 bets and he can get easily outdrawn this way if he's ahead.

[Dave Mac]

who are they good coping bad coping? i mean he is saying hey i am a fan of your books and i particapte in your forum nice to meet you and d.s. basically says i don't give a [censored] don't bother me. i mean maybe this is standard but that shows a total lack of human decency and respect.
dave

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would A10o, KQo, and KJs enter the picture, not to mention some other edgier suited connector holdings?

After all, you do have position.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.sni.srsd.mb.ca/images/Fishing/Big%20Fish.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]


Far be it that I think that everything I say is always going to be 100% on the money, but it's downright ludicrous to believe it's a fishy play to 3-bet from the button with those holdings against someone who very easily can be raising lighter than that.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]

BVT:

Id ignore him. If hes was joking fine, but if he was serious, he's not ready to understand how retarded his post is.

[Dave Mac]

o yeah and i just wanted to clear up i don't mean he should pretend to be best friends with bk or even know who he was but just say o that is nice, good to meet you. it takes no effort.

[jason_t]

If you look at all of his posts they are just retarded pictures in reply to threads. It's clearly some other 2+2er's gimmick account and I wish it would be banned already as I put the gimmick account on ignore a long time ago.

[Ulysses]

I am somewhat surprised David did not raise the river.

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
I am somewhat surprised David did not raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah i definitly would raise the river, however with David's somewhat tighter and more predictable range here (and i dont mean this in a bad way, it just seems he is less likely to get out of line here) A lot of people probably don't pay off a raise from him.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
I am somewhat surprised David did not raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

El D,

I don't see enough hands that pay off vs getting 3-bet to make this worth a river raise. Too often this trun bet is a smaller pocket pair or stone cold bluff that will muck the river. And if he did have and over pair, TT-QQ, JJ got there.

As for the way Schneids played the hand, I like the turn bet a lot but I believe a river check is in order and if David values, the muck should be considered.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
I am somewhat surprised David did not raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are told David thought he was up against a typical overaggressive online player, so he possibly did not feel he could fold to a 3 bet.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
I am somewhat surprised David did not raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more interested in what happened with david and the young black female, and also, what she looked like.

[alThor]

[ QUOTE ]
I gotta give it to mason though, He went to the bellagio buffet with me, schneids and a friend 6 months ago and let us bounce stuff off him. That was cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like what, meatballs? Croutons? That does sound fun. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[Mikey]

assume you are David and did raise the river with KK,
what hand would you think would call you?

Also do you consider raising the river on the fact that you may be 3-bet as a bluff which you are willing to call down?

Can you give an explanation of why you would raise the river?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I am somewhat surprised David did not raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO this only opens a huge can of worms, especially against a sneaky prick like schneids.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
assume you are David and did raise the river with KK,
what hand would you think would call you?

[/ QUOTE ]

JT and any hand that thinks I'm full of crap.

[ QUOTE ]
Also do you consider raising the river on the fact that you may be 3-bet as a bluff which you are willing to call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm not sure what to do in that spot, I call. But if I've seen punks playing like BK and Schneids have been playing, I raise and happily call a 3-bet.

[skp]

Lots of hands would call a river raise from David. If they frequently folded, David could just raise blind every time on the river and expect to show a tidy profit.

[Dantes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
assume you are David and did raise the river with KK,
what hand would you think would call you?

[/ QUOTE ]

JT and any hand that thinks I'm full of crap.


[/ QUOTE ]

cmon

Does anyone ever think dsklansky is full of crap??

at the table.

[JJNJustin]

The man boarders on mathematical genius. His writings have helped my poker game and understanding of the game tremondously. Those of you who say he is overly tight or predictable are just showing your ignorance. He could probably play circles around most of the people who post on here.

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
The man borders on mathematical genius

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you just put yourself on Davids black list.

[InfernoLL]

[ QUOTE ]
Those of you who say he is overly tight or predictable are just showing your ignorance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not, a lot of those people have studied his books more closely than you have and are better players than you.

[ QUOTE ]
He could probably play circles around most of the people who post on here.

[/ QUOTE ]

That isn't saying much, but what is saying much is my opinion that the best players on this board are probably better at limit hold'em than Sklansky. I mean, all he would have to do is follow a little of his own advice from HPFAP...

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]

cmon

Does anyone ever think dsklansky is full of crap??

at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

cmon

Are you saying dsklansky has no moves??

at the table.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
I am somewhat surprised David did not raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

cmon

Does anyone ever think dsklansky is full of crap??

at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

cmon

Are you saying dsklansky has no moves??

at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

of COURSE he has moves...for instance...he moves to bet the ponies.

Barron

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

cmon

Does anyone ever think dsklansky is full of crap??

at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

cmon

Are you saying dsklansky has no moves??

at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played quite a bit of live nl with Sklansky, anyone who doesn't think he has moves should see some of the crazy [censored] he does. He knows what his image is. I am not joking.

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
I've played quite a bit of live nl with Sklansky

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I'm curious. What limit of Live NL does DS play? My guess is 10/20.

Yes I played with him primarily at 10/20, although our most interesting session was when he was on my right at 25/50 and actually engaged me in conversation.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I played with him primarily at 10/20, although our most interesting session was when he was on my right at 25/50 and actually engaged me in conversation.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. Now I am thinking about flying out to Vegas just to play some NL poker w/ DS. "David, how much can you call? Are you going to call or raise if I bet $1000? Seriously, David, how much should I bet right here? I am pretty sure my hand is a little better than yours. You have Aces and Sixes, right? Yeah, I can beat that. How much will you call?"

[mike l.]

[ QUOTE ]
actually engaged me in conversation.

[/ QUOTE ]

"scoot over assshole so my black girlfriend can get a look at my cards!" does not qualify as conversation.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
actually engaged me in conversation.

[/ QUOTE ]

"scoot over assshole so my black girlfriend can get a look at my cards!" does not qualify as conversation.

[/ QUOTE ]

She was so hot, I had already scooted over. Actually I have never seen the woman who we are presuming to be Sklansky's gf. All of my play with him was at least 4 months ago. As far as Diablo is concerned, it is more fun to just talk to him about hypotheticals after the fact, well if it had been this what would you have done, etc. Though I think he was using all of it to try to understand how deeply I thought about the game.

[The Truth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
actually engaged me in conversation.

[/ QUOTE ]

"scoot over assshole so my black girlfriend can get a look at my cards!" does not qualify as conversation.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice


-blake

[Mikey]

can you give us an example of a crazy thing you've seen him do at the table?

[David Sklansky]

I had two kings. Both players played correctly. (Raising on the turn is close but probably wrong, especially if a 23 year old woman is watching.) Why is this hand interesting?

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
I had two kings. Both players played correctly. (Raising on the turn is close but probably wrong, especially if a 23 year old woman is watching.) Why is this hand interesting?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
23 year old woman

[/ QUOTE ]

Go David!

[PatJ]

Cheers david

[The Truth]

[ QUOTE ]
I had two kings. Both players played correctly. (Raising on the turn is close but probably wrong, especially if a 23 year old woman is watching.) Why is this hand interesting?

[/ QUOTE ]


meh. C- on the response. Your work is incomplete.

-blake

[That guy]

I guess the rumor is true that Ciara has decided to join the Hold em craze...

http://us.ent2.yimg.com/musicfinder.yahoo.com/images/yahoo/leface/ciara/0704_ciara_c.jpg


btw, she told me later she preferred to raise the turn...

[JohnnyHumongous]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet he calls I lose to his KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

christ he played that weak

[SCfuji]

must be his niece

[limitholdemshark]

short handed there are a wide varity of hands david could have and three bet ur preflop raise.he could be as weak as pocket 22s or as strong as poket aces.he could also have qj j10 ect.,ect.inorder to define his hand u cant be a calling station on the flop u must check raise him and if he calls no matter what card hits the turn bet out.if he reraises u call andcheck call to the river.once u just called him on the flop and then bet out on the turn he put u on a weak hand but just in case the card u turned gave u something to be proud of he did the prudent thing and calls u down 4 a showdown.remember aggressive play always gets the money against anyone weather a joe shmoe or a world clsss player.

[Michael Davis]

"remember aggressive play always gets the money against anyone weather a joe shmoe or a world clsss player."

It's about time somebody had the guts to tell Schneids what's up.

-Michael

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I had two kings. Both players played correctly. (Raising on the turn is close but probably wrong, especially if a 23 year old woman is watching.) Why is this hand interesting?

[/ QUOTE ]

Among other things, I find two points interesting.

If David raises the river, what percentage of the time should Schneids call with his hand?

What percentage of time should David play the hand as he did and then raise the river, when he has AK instead of KK?

The interesting part of this hand is that we have two players who presumably play well and have multiple levels of thought involved in their play, and thus must each consider their and their opponent's play with that in mind.

[J.A.Sucker]

[ QUOTE ]
(Raising on the turn is close but probably wrong, especially if a 23 year old woman is watching.) Why is this hand interesting?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you hit the nail on the head, David. Nice work!

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
If David raises the river, what percentage of the time should Schneids call with his hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never thought I would question a strategy post from The Devil Himself, but for the life of me it doesn't make sense why you would ever call just some percent of the time.

Three options I see:
(1) Sklansky's river raise is more often made to get value from middle pair than it is to bluff out middle pair, so always fold.
(2) Sklansky's river raise is more often made to bluff out middle pair than it is to get value from middle pair, so always call.
(3) Sklansky is using game theory to make our decision with middle pair 0 EV, so always call since there's a 23-year-old woman watching and we will look cool picking off David's bluff.

I suspect El Diablo has me on ignore, so can somebody please explain?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If David raises the river, what percentage of the time should Schneids call with his hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never thought I would question a strategy post from The Devil Himself, but for the life of me it doesn't make sense why you would ever call just some percent of the time.

Three options I see:
(1) Sklansky's river raise is more often made to get value from middle pair than it is to bluff out middle pair, so always fold.
(2) Sklansky's river raise is more often made to bluff out middle pair than it is to get value from middle pair, so always call.
(3) Sklansky is using game theory to make our decision with middle pair 0 EV, so always call since there's a 23-year-old woman watching and we will look cool picking off David's bluff.

I suspect El Diablo has me on ignore, so can somebody please explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, I should have said "call or re-raise."

Why would I have you on ignore? Should I?

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
(3) Sklansky is using game theory to make our decision with middle pair 0 EV, so always call since there's a 23-year-old woman watching and we will look cool picking off David's bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky factored in the EV of the chick seeing you pick off his bluff when he calculated his optimal bluffing frequency.

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I should have said "call or re-raise."

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah-hah...now THAT makes sense, and is indeed very interesting...I'm adding this to my list of hands to do comprehensive range-analysis on this weekend.

[ QUOTE ]
Why would I have you on ignore? Should I?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, maybe that's Clarkmeister who's constantly ignoring stupid people. Well thanks for replying despite my intellectual deficiencies. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If David raises the river, what percentage of the time should Schneids call with his hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never thought I would question a strategy post from The Devil Himself, but for the life of me it doesn't make sense why you would ever call just some percent of the time.

Three options I see:
(1) Sklansky's river raise is more often made to get value from middle pair than it is to bluff out middle pair, so always fold.
(2) Sklansky's river raise is more often made to bluff out middle pair than it is to get value from middle pair, so always call.
(3) Sklansky is using game theory to make our decision with middle pair 0 EV, so always call since there's a 23-year-old woman watching and we will look cool picking off David's bluff.

I suspect El Diablo has me on ignore, so can somebody please explain?

[/ QUOTE ]

wouldn't sklansky's raise be made to solicit any of these actions against your range of hands on the river? and thus, if A8o falls somewhere in the split between percentages that you perform each action, couldn't you conceivably perform different actions some percentage of the time and have that be optimal (beyond just randomizing your play)

also, I like El D's mention of AK, I thought about that in the grocery store today. then I always ask myself "but then shouldn't schneids 3 bet like 1 time in X (X = large) so Sklansky will fold?" then I keep shopping.

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(3) Sklansky is using game theory to make our decision with middle pair 0 EV, so always call since there's a 23-year-old woman watching and we will look cool picking off David's bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky factored in the EV of the chick seeing you pick off his bluff when he calculated his optimal bluffing frequency.

[/ QUOTE ]

D'oh!

nh /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bigfishead]

There is nothing interesting at all about the play of this hand. If DS raises the turn you fold. He looses 1 bet. If he raises the river you only call with hands that he cannot beat and may get re-raised. No + value to raise the river.

But DS knows that in THIS game, you young whipper snappers will bet any pair on the turn, as well as often check-raising any pair on the flop. So the 9 could hit you on the turn. He also knows you will call any pair on the flop. giving more reason to just call the turn. AND he knows you young whipper snappers will OFTEN bet a draw on the turn as well, hoping for a fold. Hell, I think David played a Tommy on ya. And DS can be one of TA's biggest critics!

All +'s are on Davids side this time in playing you perfect
Schneids.

ps. I predict numerous of these same regular young guys will go broke when more DS's infiltrate this game and play you acordingly. This game is like an ULTRA aggro 4-8 with a tight side preflop in terms of multi-way action, and calling stations after the flop. IMO. However, there seem to be fish tourist taking shots at it enough that even these guys with no reading skills whatsoever can take large chunks out of the game at times too.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing interesting at all about the play of this hand. If DS raises the turn you fold. He looses 1 bet. If he raises the river you only call with hands that he cannot beat and may get re-raised. No + value to raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how should DS play it if he has AK instead of KK?

[obi---one]

[ QUOTE ]

Among other things, I find two points interesting.

If David raises the river, what percentage of the time should Schneids call with his hand?

What percentage of time should David play the hand as he did and then raise the river, when he has AK instead of KK?

The interesting part of this hand is that we have two players who presumably play well and have multiple levels of thought involved in their play, and thus must each consider their and their opponent's play with that in mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

If DS raises turn do you...
A. fold, pretty obvious against overpair
B. call, pretty obvious against overpair, have five outs,
C. reraise, pretty obvious against overpair, bluff his obvious overpair and try to get the nit to fold

[Schneids]

I'm pretty sure David and Mason both advocate playing the A8 flop and turn this same way a vast majority of the time. Obviously when David has kings the hand plays itself for him but what about when he has 77 or AK or KQ or whatever else on this board and the turn? I guess if us "young soon-to-be-broke whipper snappers" are playing all those types of hands that way (the pairs and the draws) he's in a much trickier spot. Unless you're saying DS only has a huge PP there, which if that is the case, then HE becomes very easy to play against. And sure, the guys who keep on firing and don't ever adjust are going to go broke. But there's also some of us with a brain on our heads and are capable of adjusting and playing different styles and understanding what people think of us, so please, save the pot-shots for WPT forum.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]

There is nothing interesting at all about the play of this hand. If DS raises the turn you fold. He looses 1 bet. If he raises the river you only call with hands that he cannot beat and may get re-raised. No + value to raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you ever played texas hold'em before?

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(3) Sklansky is using game theory to make our decision with middle pair 0 EV, so always call since there's a 23-year-old woman watching and we will look cool picking off David's bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky factored in the EV of the chick seeing you pick off his bluff when he calculated his optimal bluffing frequency.

[/ QUOTE ]

This thread has been pretty good but this is pure gold.

[InfernoLL]

[ QUOTE ]
even these guys with no reading skills whatsoever

[/ QUOTE ]

Kinda like just calling with the best hand twice?

[bigfishead]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure David and Mason both advocate playing the A8 flop and turn this same way a vast majority of the time. Obviously when David has kings the hand plays itself for him but what about when he has 77 or AK or KQ or whatever else on this board and the turn? I guess if us "young soon-to-be-broke whipper snappers" are playing all those types of hands that way (the pairs and the draws) he's in a much trickier spot. Unless you're saying DS only has a huge PP there, which if that is the case, then HE becomes very easy to play against. And sure, the guys who keep on firing and don't ever adjust are going to go broke. But there's also some of us with a brain on our heads and are capable of adjusting and playing different styles and understanding what people think of us, so please, save the pot-shots for WPT forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Key to my post is THIS GAME. Meaning exactly, the 80/160 game at Bellagio. It doesnt play like the 30/60, it doesnt play like 200-400 or 300-600 when that is goin. After 20 years in poker I have seen them come n go more than once.

If one cannot see the +1 1/2 bets gained in this hand(my mistake in orginal stating 1 bet) played exactly as DS did, compared to what others were suggesting, I cant help that.

You are exactly correct in being able to make adjustments to DS's play for your own future confrontations with him. The thing is I see the same young kids I spoke of before NOT making these adjustments in THIS GAME. It isnt a pot shot...it's a fact. Maybe an eye opener for a select few. Super AGGRO does not always take the money. And DS and many others know exactly how to break those type. I've paid my bills off them many times over.

In the last 2 years poker in live games is ten times more aggressive thanks to WPT/WSOP television. Swings are higher for the old LV types but most adjust and remember the constant aggression of California games for the last 15 years. Hence ways in which TA was villified a year ago for playing become +ev much more clearly.

I have no doubt in my mind that if DS raises the turn Schneids is gone from this hand in particular. And DS will muck more often with the hands you state when schneids has him beat. Also if Schneids check raises the flop as is MOST OFTEN done with this exact hand he has in this EXACT GAME, and DS 3 bets, schneids is gone. But if Schneids CR's and DS smooth calls with the over pair he now makes 1 1/2 bets more netting approximately 9 bets MORE per 10 times played.

I hope I didnt screw up the way I wrote it.

Mason and I were talking very recently in fact about the over aggressive nature of this game and most HE games today in fact. This over aggressiveness is fully 80% of the time from those "youngsters"(anything under 25 easily qualifies, tho I sometimes suggest 30). It's a very simple fact, time at the tables.

Dont believe me? Go play 2-5 NL for 8 hrs a day for a week at Bellagio. Then go play the 10-20 NL...two completely different worlds. One is Gambling, one is a NL game. Avg age difference at the table? easily 10+ years avg difference.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
If one cannot see the +1 1/2 bets gained in this hand(my mistake in orginal stating 1 bet) played exactly as DS did, compared to what others were suggesting, I cant help that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate how David's play gains 1.5 bets over taking the same line and then raising the river here. Please also explain how it is you think David should play AK in this situation. You and others seem to be all wrapped up in the fact that David happened to have KK in this spot and Schneids had A8o. As I said earlier, what if David has AK? What if Schneids has JT?

Your thoughts throughout this thread seem to imply that either DS or Schneids or both are very easy to play against.

[ QUOTE ]
Go play 2-5 NL for 8 hrs a day for a week at Bellagio. Then go play the 10-20 NL...two completely different worlds. One is Gambling, one is a NL game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds suspiciously like the old "you can't beat this game, all the morons never fold" argument.

[bigfishead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing interesting at all about the play of this hand. If DS raises the turn you fold. He looses 1 bet. If he raises the river you only call with hands that he cannot beat and may get re-raised. No + value to raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how should DS play it if he has AK instead of KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm missing something here El Diablo. I dont see how your question relates to the statement of mine you quoted. BTW, can you see TA plating it just like DS did? I think you can.
Just wonderin.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing interesting at all about the play of this hand. If DS raises the turn you fold. He looses 1 bet. If he raises the river you only call with hands that he cannot beat and may get re-raised. No + value to raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how should DS play it if he has AK instead of KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm missing something here El Diablo. I dont see how your question relates to the statement of mine you quoted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps if you attempt to answer the question(s) I ask, this will become clearer to you.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, can you see TA plating it just like DS did?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but I'm not sure what that shows.

[bigfishead]

Ok, I missed one of your posts on this thread.

Lets break it down a little with these two particular players only please. After all, it wasnt "player A" and "player B"

I think I was clear in that Schneids doesnt call a river raise on this hand or a hand that DOESNT beat a fairly strong hand. I would suspect Scneids fold to a river raise with all hands less than JJ in this spot, against this player. DS isnt known for river bluff raises. Certainly not head-up. (stick schneids in the middle with a suspected player on a draw behind and maybe then an occasional bluff raise). Do we agree on this point with THESE TWO PLAYERS?

Now, lets look at some typical plays made in THIS GAME in situations just like this with somewhat more random hands by a pre-flop 3-bettor(more random 3-betting DS is not imo)

Schneids is now Player "A" with the same A8. Player "B" suspects Scneids (correctly on a fair % of time) is raising preflop with a mediocre hand a high % of time, taking advantage of his position. Would we tend to agree here? Player "B" 3 bets with a much wider range naturally. But Scneids doesnt believe Player "B" now has to have a great hand to 3-bet. The hand plays out like Schneids descibes, but Schneids will win a higher % of times against more random players with this flop. Often times even by just Hi-carding. Let alone the pair.

But with DS, if DS raises (IMO) at any time after the flop, Scneids folds a much higher % of times AGAINST DS. You and I both know DS is not real creative that often, so I think we can agree here.

Yet calling Schneids down does two things..FOR DS..It wins at least 1 more bet than raiseing at any time after the flop when he is ahead. It loses 1 less bet MINIMUM if Schneids is playing a straightforward bet out trips with A9 on this flop. It ALSO lets schneids know he better have a hand to bet out the turn when DS 3-bets him preflop, THEREBY ALLOWING DS to make future "takeaways" at later times when Schneids starts checking turns, or checking behind for his own free cards more often when Scneids is now subdued into check/call mode against DS's pre-flop 3-bet.

For those that have a high propensity to "bet the river" but fold to a raise,(when out of position) almost automatically, as many people suggest so often on the forums today, I submit they are losing pots to players that are just creative enough to bluff raise a river when we could easily check/call these mediocre hands costing us the same but picking up a small % more POTS but not losing any more bets.

As for the AK question? I'm not positive, but in my observances of DS, I believe he mucks to the turn bet more often with AK than many would believe. There are only 4 3/4 BB's in this pot when schneids fires on the turn. However, against some other players in that game he is way ahead a small but reasonable % of times as it is often a "move" bet with very few outs, but some. Often as little as 3 outs to win if called. However I dont see DS raising a river bet with AK in this spot. But I certainly could be wrong.

As for the young lady: She was very interesting. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Ulysses]

As you describe them, Schneids and DS seem like pretty easy opponents to play against. It also sounds like DS can pretty much shove you around at will.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
As you describe them, Schneids and DS seem like pretty easy opponents to play against.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either that, or his answer to my question was "No".