settle a bet... 30/60 preflop

[jayheaps]

My friends and I disagree about what is the standard "2+2" play?

normal party 30 game-- 7 handed. a bit loose and very aggressive. You are on the button with TT. UTG + 1 raises, CO 3-bets. What do you do?

[PokerBob]

i've never played the 30, but i don't feel like it matters which road you take, as i doubt any is that much better/worse than the others.

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
i've never played the 30, but i don't feel like it matters which road you take, as i doubt any is that much better/worse than the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not make any sense.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i've never played the 30, but i don't feel like it matters which road you take, as i doubt any is that much better/worse than the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, ok.

[Dominic]

I'm not sure how +EV it is to play TT for three bets...so i'm either folding or capping it, depending on the UTG player. Is he solid, is he he loose? Will he fold for an additional 2-bets??

The most common hand for the CU in this situation (assuming he's a 2+2er) would be a small to mid PP and he's raising to isolate, correct?

Or, is he someone who is most like raising for value here?

I think it's completely dependant on your read of the players in question.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how +EV it is to play TT for three bets...so i'm either folding or capping it, depending on the UTG player. Is he solid, is he he loose? Will he fold for an additional 2-bets??

The most common hand for the CU in this situation (assuming he's a 2+2er) would be a small to mid PP and he's raising to isolate, correct?

Or, is he someone who is most like raising for value here?

I think it's completely dependant on your read of the players in question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its also quite possible he has a big pair, like bigger than tens. Or a big Ace that certainly has 2 overs. This hand is going to be really difficult to play post flop. I voted for fold.

lf

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i've never played the 30, but i don't feel like it matters which road you take, as i doubt any is that much better/worse than the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? well what is your estimate of the EV of TT in that spot if hero

a) caps
b)calls
c) folds

and what is the size of the difference between the largest EV and smallest EV of teh choices?

Barron

[Dominic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how +EV it is to play TT for three bets...so i'm either folding or capping it, depending on the UTG player. Is he solid, is he he loose? Will he fold for an additional 2-bets??

The most common hand for the CU in this situation (assuming he's a 2+2er) would be a small to mid PP and he's raising to isolate, correct?

Or, is he someone who is most like raising for value here?

I think it's completely dependant on your read of the players in question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its also quite possible he has a big pair, like bigger than tens. Or a big Ace that certainly has 2 overs. This hand is going to be really difficult to play post flop. I voted for fold.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell,I 've folded QQ in this spot when it's been capped before it got to me....so folding TT to three bets cannot be a bad thing in the long run....

[amulet]

raise and reraise, i fold TT without hesitation.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i've never played the 30, but i don't feel like it matters which road you take, as i doubt any is that much better/worse than the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? well what is your estimate of the EV of TT in that spot if hero

a) caps
b)calls
c) folds

and what is the size of the difference between the largest EV and smallest EV of teh choices?

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

well, if he folds it is zero..that is all i know, but i am not very bright.

[YoureToast]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i've never played the 30, but i don't feel like it matters which road you take, as i doubt any is that much better/worse than the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]



really? well what is your estimate of the EV of TT in that spot if hero

a) caps
b)calls
c) folds

and what is the size of the difference between the largest EV and smallest EV of teh choices?

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Barron, I agree with PokerBob. But what I'm more interested in is if you can answer to any degree of reliability your own questions? And if you are, more importantly, how do you go about that? I suspect you were simply pointing out to the poster that PokerBob "did" make sense, but I'm not sure.

[YoureToast]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i've never played the 30, but i don't feel like it matters which road you take, as i doubt any is that much better/worse than the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? well what is your estimate of the EV of TT in that spot if hero

a) caps
b)calls
c) folds

and what is the size of the difference between the largest EV and smallest EV of teh choices?

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

well, if he folds it is zero..that is all i know, but i am not very bright.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are exactly as bright as me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i've never played the 30, but i don't feel like it matters which road you take, as i doubt any is that much better/worse than the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not make any sense.

[/ QUOTE ]



really? well what is your estimate of the EV of TT in that spot if hero

a) caps
b)calls
c) folds

and what is the size of the difference between the largest EV and smallest EV of teh choices?

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Barron, I agree with PokerBob. But what I'm more interested in is if you can answer to any degree of reliability your own questions? And if you are, more importantly, how do you go about that? I suspect you were simply pointing out to the poster that PokerBob "did" make sense, but I'm not sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was pointing out that what pokerbob said makes a good amount of sense.

depends on the players who raise. more precisely depends on their pf raise %...

Callin: calling allows you to see if original raiser caps and get off cheap on a bad flop. but it also may make you fold best hand if its a 953 flop and UTG leads (and is over agressive) and pf3bettor raises his 8s or something. calling also allows you better odds to hit a set if behind. Calling doesn't give you much manueverability with your position though.

Cappin: gives you the lead and puts more bets in when ahead vs. AK and AQs etc. you may see a 4 card flop if it comes AQ3. you'll win a bigger pot when you win. similarly, by callin you lose a smaller pot when ahead and you call. but you also win a smaller one when you draw out or are ahead.

id guess that the EV there ranges from +.2bbs to -.2 bbs depending on a) villians' pf raise % b) their go to river%s, c) how many bets they lose if a set comes w/ overpairs, and d) if they will give you a 4 card flop if you cap and it comes bad.

so those are a few thoughts. folding=0 obviously. putting in those bets and not hitting a set is bad as is hitting a set and losing. but when you do hit and win or only a few bets go in postflop and win then you get a huge pot. they offset eachother, sometimes they dont though....which is determined by those above factors

Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
raise and reraise, i fold TT without hesitation.

[/ QUOTE ]

its a good idea to fold a good % of the time. but sometimes their styles dictate a play.

Barron

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
really? well what is your estimate of the EV of TT in that spot if hero

a) caps
b)calls
c) folds

and what is the size of the difference between the largest EV and smallest EV of teh choices?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that the range of hands of the CO and UTG+1 after the CO 3-bets the UTG+1 raise puts TT in horrible shape. Thus I think folding has to be the highest EV by a substantial margin. I think that capping is better than cold calling 3 bets, but probably not by much; besides, who cold calls 3-bets anyway?

I agree however that capping is the best move if you have reason to believe (i.e. reads on thoseplayers' tendencies) that TT has very high equity; for example, if UTG+1 could have random cards and you know that the CO is trying to isolate.

[Klepton]

[ QUOTE ]
raise and reraise, i fold TT without hesitation.

[/ QUOTE ]

no one is suprised, you would fold QQ here.

to the OP, I voted capping for some reasons.

1) a cold cap is pretty intimidating. It usually only means AA-JJ and AK. therefore if the players start playing back at you'll be able to dump it correctly.
2) position

i wish someone would come in and do the math, it's pretty interesting.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

i wish someone would come in and do the math, it's pretty interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

anyone know anyone getting a PhD in math? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i wish someone would come in and do the math, it's pretty interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

anyone know anyone getting a PhD in math? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, that would be useful though.

[sthief09]

you could just pokerstove it. I think in a game that aggressive, folding it should be the exception to the rule, especially 7 handed. my range UTG there is probably ATo+, KJo+, A9s+, KTs+, 77+, QJs, and 3-betting range AA-88, AJ+, KQ. against that range, he's slightly above fair share

[sthief09]

the game was played 7 handed. first guy folded. now there is an UTG raise and CO 3-bet in a 6-max game and your standard play is fold? that's weak

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
the game was played 7 handed. first guy folded. now there is an UTG raise and CO 3-bet in a 6-max game and your standard play is fold? that's weak

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, I missed that it was 7-handed, that changes things quite a bit.

[Pog0]

[ QUOTE ]
Oops, I missed that it was 7-handed, that changes things quite a bit.


[/ QUOTE ]

Only if they realize that it changes things quite a bit.

[DeeJ]

[ QUOTE ]
7 handed. a bit loose and very aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

This turns it from a fold to a raise. A bit tight=fold. A bit passive=fold. A bit loose + very aggressive = reraise. Calling is probably not bad either if it helps disguise your hand.

[YoureToast]

Jay, I think you have the answer to the question. There is no answer. A lot depends on the types of players who raised. But even assuming you know this, unless their maniacs, I don't think theres a "standard" 2+2 answer to this. I will personally fold this to all but the most aggressive players. I'll also cap if the original raiser is a maniac and I think the 3 better knows it. I do think that the circumstances in which calling is correct are few and far between -- and may only exist if the original better is a complete and absolute moron postflop as well as being a maniac preflop.

[amulet]

why are your posts always hostile? depending on the opponent i either cap here with QQ or fold. more often i cap, but like everything discussed here it depends on the game and the opponents.

[jayheaps]

[ QUOTE ]
Jay, I think you have the answer to the question. There is no answer. A lot depends on the types of players who raised. But even assuming you know this, unless their maniacs, I don't think theres a "standard" 2+2 answer to this. I will personally fold this to all but the most aggressive players. I'll also cap if the original raiser is a maniac and I think the 3 better knows it. I do think that the circumstances in which calling is correct are few and far between -- and may only exist if the original better is a complete and absolute moron postflop as well as being a maniac preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was more curious as to what the consensus view is. In my mind, I cap every time unless the CO is very tight. Personally, I thought the 2+2 crowd would be around 75/25 in favor of capping.