I am a LTL!

[Sooga]

At least live I am. I am absolutely positive of this. Josh W and Duke have tried convincing me that I am not, but I'd say i lose 3 out of every 4 sessions or so. I only play 4/8 or 6/12 limits, and I don't feel like I'm getting outplayed at all, and I feel as though I'm always play my A game. But I lose. Constantly. So, I decided a few days ago after another losing session that I am no longer going to play live poker.

Which brings me to internet poker. There, (mostly Paradise) I win almost all the time. I play 2 tables at a time usually, and although I do not keep track of hourly stats, I have been winning consistently for at over a year, and I play quite often.

I don't understand the disparity. It can't be that I'm just running good online or running bad online, because this has been going on for quite some time. I play the exact same type of game online and live, but my results are night and day. Anyone else have this sort of disparity or have an explanation for it?

[Homer]

What does LTL mean?

[Sooga]

long term loser!

[Vehn]

You've been lucky online?

[Jimbo]

Sooga is this really you? Your post sounds like Josh hijacked your password and is passing himself off as you. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif (except you said nothing about raising 4/5 offsuit from the button) /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Jon Matthews]

maybe you're easier to read in person?

[KSFW&L]

I am serious; this is not meant as a joke (or a poke).

I have seen a number of friends who play well (some even very well) online but struggle in live games; they all seem to share one trait - they all tend to get "lost in the hand".

Do you (when in a live game) - - -

Watch the flop come down in a pot that was raised pre-flop and even OCCASIONALLY forget who raised it ?

Neglect to keep track of who is close to being all-in ?

Get bored with the snail-like pace of the game and the numerous distractions (when compared to online) and allow your mind to wander ?

There's no shame if you answered yes to any of these questions, but if you did answer yes to even one you might want to "focus more on focusing".

If you try this and find that you are not making any noteworthy improvements - maybe online is better for you.

I can play online for hours on end; if I do forget who raised (usually this occurs after I've seen the sun rise for the 2nd time) I can always "scroll back" and find out.

Sadly this option is not available in a live game.

- L -

*

P.S. The obvious drawback to playing online is - for me at least - I will not, under ANY circumstances, play higher than 3-6. If you aspire to graduate to "red chip" games you will pretty much need to find a way to improve your ability to concentrate.

I am a trusting soul by nature, but as far as 10-20/20-40 online, to use an expression often used by my oldest and dearest friend, "I wouldn't play in that game with your money if I were mad at you". /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[gilly]

My guess would be that you play too loose in the live games. You said you play in two games on the computer and those games go much quicker. So you are seeing something like at least 5-8 times the numbers of hands. It makes it easier to fold when you know you have another table where you will get to see two more cards. In a live game you just have to sit and wait for everyone else to finish playing before you get another hand. This may or may not be your problem but it is something to consider

[Sooga]

I doubt this is the case... I play more often online than I do live, and for longer hours. Since I also play multiple tables at once, I go through far more hands online than I do live, which should get me closer to the 'long run'. I used to play almost exclusively 0.5/1 games, and after I found I could beat those consistently, I went to the 2/4 games, which is just as consistent. The 5/10 games are a little more aggressive than I'd like, so I'll stick to 2/4. In any case, I've been winning at 2/4 for quite a while so I don't think it's luck. In fact, Josh and Duke have told me I've just been UNlucky live, but I don't know about that either...

[Sooga]

Funny you should mention this. Duke was sweating me the other day and he was telling me how I played too tight in live games! The 6/12 games down here play much looser than the 2/4 games online, so he said that I should be playing a few more hands than I would normally play (some extra suited hands especially in late position), and my failure to do so is costing me money. I'm not sure I agree.

[mrbaseball]

I don't play much live but did just return from a trip to LV and I did notice a slight difference in my play live vs online.

I did pretty good live but noticed I was sometimes drifting into weak/tight mode from my desired tight/aggressive play. I know on a couple of key hands I played much less aggressively than I would have online. Maybe because I'm much more comfortable online and constantly rusty at live play since I only get to do it two weeks a year. I noticed this tendancy though and fought it off for the most part.

[Tyler Durden]

I do way better in live play than I do online. I find it harder to read hands online. Maybe it's b/c when I play live I play with the same people about twice a week and I know how they play--I'm used to it.

Live play can be boring in a B&M if you don't know anyone at the table--I used to stand during hands I wasn't in and wander away. Online there's lots to do when not in a hand.

As someone else stated, I think you need to focus more. Play tighter, but more drawing hands if you're in a loose wild game.

[Duke]

Sooga is a solid player. Yeah, in a big game he'd get run over, but dropping 50 BB in a couple sessions of live play at micro limits and seeing a grand total of 4 flops isn't exactly the long run.

I don't think Sooga would be a long term dog at any table from micro through about 30-60/40-80. Even if it were full of 2+2ers.

~D

[Mano]

A couple of thoughts:

Do you play in casino or home game? Perhaps there is cheating going on.

Are you easy to read emotionally? Have you had any good players that you really trust play with you and try to pick up tells?

Do you adjust your game for the different conditions in the live games - tightness/aggressiveness/blind structure/etc.

Are you easily distracted by all that is around you in a live game?

Lots of different variables.

Oh, and don't wear mirrored glasses when peeking at your hole cards /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[AceHigh]

Maybe you have a tell. You don't happen to eat OREO's at the table, do you?

[Vehn]

It was kinda a joke.

[Duke]

As to this...

Well, if it's hyper-aggresisve and wild, you tighten up to the point where you are at right now. I didn't do this a few days ago and dropped 4 racks in a 20-40 that you would have killed.

When it's a passive game, with little raising, and draws will be cheap, and you'll get paid when you get there, play more drawing hands. Take advantage of it. Yeah you get a bit more variance, but your expectation will go way up. You can squeeze an earn out of medium holdings as well as premium hands.

So - play your style at commerce. At the Hustler, play a little looser when you have position, and get your draws cheaply, and get paid.

I was joking about K5s, and T7o, and J9o... but hell, in a game that passive I'd be in there in middle or late position with a lot of hands with potential.

I'm not joking about 46o, though.

~D

[Duke]

I disagree with playing more hands in a loose/wild game. Loose passive, yeah. Get paid when you get there, and so on.

In a wild game (7 way capped pre-flop, or does it never get that wild onthe east coast?), you need to limit your exposure. I got berated for it after a bad session, and the berater was correct.

~D

[Duke]

No offense taken :-)

Sooga's my boy. Gotta get him into the real games at some point.

~D

[Clarkmeister]

Having played briefly with you, read your self descriptions over time on the forum, and having read descriptions of you by both Duke and JW, I think it makes sense.

All evidence available to me points towards you playing excessively weak tight. In the current online environment, that is a great way to make money since the vast majority of players are hyper aggressive and will always bet your hands for you.

When playing live this isn't the case. Table image is more of a factor, and people read hands better. You simply aren't going to get paid off enough to compensate for the +EV hands you fold preflop, and for the bets that you fail to pick up because of your timidity. Online this isn't a problem because they consistently bet for you and rarely slow down regardless of image. IMO that isn't the case live.

Of course, I could be totally wrong, but there's a theory for you.

[TAFKAn]

Dude, it's limit hold'em. There's almost no telling what's going on unless you are talking about a period of several years.

[Bob T.]

Hi Sooga,

I played with you that couple of hours at Dynasty's, and during that game, I thought that you played very tight, and fairly passively (although when compared to Duke that night, everyone was passive /forums/images/icons/wink.gif ). I wonder if in live games, you tend to not play aggressively enough, but when you play online, the anonymity of the game, or the ease with which you can slide over to the raise button allows you to play more aggressively.

Duke, and Josh, have obviously seen your play a lot more often, but that was just my first impression.

For what it is worth, since the beginning of April, I have been running poorly in live games, and running over online games. So if you figure it out, let me know.

[Josh W]

Man oh man....spend a day away and look what happens...

First and foremost, Jimbo...please. It was 74o. And I haven't made a "woe is me" post in many hours, at least.

Now, sooga....

You are a winning player. Why else would I be so damn eager to stake you in games? Same with Duke.

For those interested....Duke and I threw Sooga into a moderately tough 15-30 game tonite...and he came out a winner.

But like I told you on the walk out to the car...

You give away too much with your posture at the table. You never ever ever get to draw for cheap, and never get free cards because it is obvious to a blind man when you miss the flop.

When you call a raise from the BB w/ 66, you need to act the exact same if the flop comes AKJ or if it comes A66. And you don't. At 4-8, many players will notice this and not take advantage of it, but any higher stakes, and people will realize "hey, I got nothing but the button, but he obviously missed, so I bet", and you lose a chance at the pot.

Also, be honest with yourself. How many hours have you played live this calendar year? 50? MAYBE. It means nothing. Really. Give it some more time. And if you ever want to be put in a game, you have my number....

J.Wo

[SoBeDude]

I too have had the same problem recently.

A very juicy live 10-20 game that is beating me up and is full of lousy players.

I can so clearly see the mistakes so many of them are making I know I'm a much better player...but still I lose there.

So I figure I haven't adjusted my game to the way they play. My problem is I haven't figured out what adjustments need to be made.

My read on the "table" as a whole is they'll stay forever with a flush draw, play any ace, play any two suiteds (many will even play any two suiteds for 2 bets preflop). My preflop raises get little respect. The game is not wild, but many hands are played for 2 bets preflop, only occasionally 3 bets. But there is also an occasional chop, too. Bluffs are a bad idea on this table as usually someone will show you down with bottom or middle pair.

So I play tight, try to wait for good cards then come out firing.

And I'm getting tired of dropping $500 a pop there.

-Scott

I'd love some suggestions.

[Bob T.]

You give away too much with your posture at the table. You never ever ever get to draw for cheap, and never get free cards because it is obvious to a blind man when you miss the flop.


and you don't think that this is reason enough for sooga to be playing online?

[Duke]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
You give away too much with your posture at the table. You never ever ever get to draw for cheap, and never get free cards because it is obvious to a blind man when you miss the flop.


and you don't think that this is reason enough for sooga to be playing online?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's reason enough that he needs more live experience to work on that part of his game.

~D

[Huh]

Wow, I'm glad I came across this post. For the last six months my online play has been supporting my real life play and it's very depressing, especially since I like playing in RL a whole lot more than online.

The difference is drastic too, very noticeable. Online, playing two $2-$4/$3-$6 tables over 500 hours I am just over 2 bb/hr(or a little over a BB per table hour). RL, over the last 300 hrs, playing in home games and casinos anywhere from $3-$6 to $9-$18 I am down $1500(over 100 Big Bets). I've actually cashed out my online accounts, to play in RL.....If I lose that money I am done with RL poker for good (Geeze, that would suck).

I am starting to wonder about Clarkmeister's theory. I know there are things I do online(particularly calls on the end from bets out of no-where), where I seem to make money, while in RL these never seem to pay off.


-Huh /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[Vehn]

You have to realize that a large amount of your potential winnings during live play comes from players on tilt - not so (as much) online. You have to recognize it and learn how to use it to your advantage.

[Bob T.]

You have to realize that a large amount of your potential winnings during live play comes from players on tilt - not so (as much) online. You have to recognize it and learn how to use it to your advantage.

Why do you think this is. You hear so much about how the faster pace of the online game causes players to have cybertilt. I would have thought that it was the other way around, where you benefit more online from your opponents tilt.

[Vehn]

I would say mostly because people have to actual put an effort into going somewhere to go play cards at a B&amp;M. They have to take out money themselves and see chips being pushed to other people. Some of them travel a decent ways to get there. So when things start going bad they can't just get up and quit as easy. I think also the slow speed of the game helps to tilt people actually. Online if someone takes some beats they can just wait and know they'll get good cards again soon, but when someone is steaming and its 2 minutes per hand, every hand looks like it has value. I mean you're not gonna get even by folding, right? I dunno just in my experience it seems like people go on tilt more easily playing live. Or maybe its because I've moved into the mid limits and since people take the game more seriously they tend to tilt easier when things aren't going their way.

[Bob T.]

Or maybe its because I've moved into the mid limits and since people take the game more seriously they tend to tilt easier when things aren't going their way.

Or maybe it is the particular set of opponents that frequent that 15-30 game. I can think of three at least that are pretty liable to tilt, and then when you add in some of the other volatile characters, that might cause someone to go off, I can see where it would be a bigger part of that game, then the population of old guys who are in the yellow chip games.

[J.R.]

Its a little easier to notice who is on tilt when you can see them, /forums/images/icons/grin.gif and online tilters table hop much more so than their B&amp;M counterparts.

[CrackerZack]

I understand your point, but I find tilt to be a bigger problem online. all you have is a number in front of you...what's a call here, or an ill-advised raise there... just a number change. In B&amp;M you get to see your stack dwindle. And the time between hands in B&amp;M help me calm down. I'm a very calm person and rarely tilt, but when I get that "GRRR, WTF" feeling, it tends to be online much more often.

[Billy LTL]

I haven't read the other posts Sooga. It may just be that you're not as comfortable with face-to-face confrontations as you are with fighting an invisible foe.

Billy (the original LTL)