Calldown with aces?

[Paluka]

Party 30/60. UTG is like 13/9/1.3 so is a pretty tight player. He raises, I 3 bet with aces. Big blind calls, utg caps. Flop comes down KQ4 rainbow. I decide just to call the guy down. Opinions?

I like it, way behind or way ahead. If your ahead let him keep spewing, if your behind lose little as possible, can't fold cuz he might have AK or be a maniac.

[ggbman]

That is my exact line for these situations, i don't even see the merit in anything else.

[tonysoldier]

Nothing else you can do.

[GoodOL]

If heads up against such a player, I usually just call down. However, there is another player in the hand...so, I prefer a raise to try to force him out. UTG could have AK and big blind could have JJ-22 (or some other weak draw) and it would be a mistake to let him call for one bet. Sure, UTG might three bet...but I think that isn't as bad as letting big blind beat you if you are ahead.

[TStoneMBD]

yah theres really no reason to raise.

[NMcNasty]

I think you should raise the flop despite the fear of QQ and KK. I think even tight players cap with AK and AQs enough that its worth it to raise once for value. You also want to punish the big blind for calling with whatever garbage he had.

[Lmn55d]

There are only 6 combos of AK and 1-2 combos of AQs depending on what suits hero's AA are and what suit the Q on the flop is. There are 3 combos of QQ, 3 of KK, and 1 of AA. Hero will usually lose two bets if behind and gain one if ahead, plus villain might be bet/folding with JJ or something weird. I would think it is worth raising to cut down the odds the other guy is getting though. Raising would give him 15:2 or 7.5:1 which would make it incorrect to call with a gutshot and might get him to fold a 5 outer (probably incorrectly). Is the thinking just that he will usually have less than 4 outs on average? If he will call 2 cold with a lot of hands it's probably worth it to raise since you're now getting 2:1 on your money. Paluka is way better than I so maybe he can clear up my thinking?

[ggbman]

For all you people doing math about how often we are cutting down the others guys odds, it doesnt take into account how often we are getting 3 bet here by QQ and KK, which kills the benefit of doing this. Our goal here is to showdown the hand. We want to do it cheaply, as most tags are not open raising AQ UTG and capping when 3 bet by a solid player. Shutting out the other player is not as important as making sure we dont go 3 bets on the flop IMO.

[1800GAMBLER]

Raisefold the turn, even with the tightest range it's 6 combos you win, 6 combos you lose. this way you go 3 bets when ahead and 2 when behind. AK 3 bets the turn, never.

[Paluka]

It seems like the 3 options are a) just call down b) raise the flop to get the blind out c) raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet. I think in general I like calling down, but I like raising the turn against a player who I really know won't 3 bet the turn with a worse hand. If the turn gives me a gutshot, I would not consider raising the turn.

[mvernon851]

I agree with this. I think you have to raise the flop to give yourself the best chance to win and force the BB out.

I think your best option is to raise the flop to drive out gutshot straight draws and something like KJs from the big blind--the pot is big at this point and you need to maximize your chances of winning the hand. Assuming you get the BB to fold the preflop capper may either reraise or elect to slowplay KK or QQ (which is not a likely hand IMO) or figure he's behind or tied with AK. Since he capped preflop and is a tight player I think the only reasonable hands he could have are AA, KK or AK. Like it has already been said you are either way ahead or way behind at this point and the best hand at this point should win IN A HEADS-UP SITUATION. Assuming a call from the preflop capper and a check on the turn I think your best play is to check behind him and see what the river brings, even though it is largely irrelevent. You can assume a bet on the river with any of the above listed hands-which you just call. You have played your hand as cheaply as possible and he may even make a 'value' bet on the river with AK (which you win)-- this is all good. If you were to bet on the turn rather than checking it only bad things can happen (save the outside chance that he will fold AA). Either he will raise with a better hand or fold a worse hand. You will not have the chance of winning a river bet when he holds AK.

Assume a call on the flop and a bet on the turn when a blank hits. This presents a bit of a tough situation, but now I think you go into pay-off mode and call the turn and river-you can't risk being pushed out of this pot or showing that you can be pushed around after you have shown so much strength throughout the hand. I believe that if he did indeed have KK he would have gone for a check-raise on the turn rather than betting it out. So I would figure he has AK or AA-either of which is ok. If he has AK and bets again on the river that would be the ultimate-he's just giving his money to you. If he bets with AK and you raise it is doubtful that he will pay off a river bet and he probably won't even call your raise. But if he has AA who cares-not like it matters anyhow- a raise on the turn is too dangerous and alot of people fall in love with AA and won't fold regardless of the board. Let's say you do raise the turn here--what do you do when he three bets with KK--pay it off? Even though he is, IMO, more LIKELY to sandbag with KK on the turn maybe he's trying to win a REALLY big pot with his top set-hoping that you have QQ and will put in the max number of bets on the turn and river. Either way, that's a bad situation to be in, a raise in this situation is not an option.

Back to the raise on the flop. Assume it drives the BB out and the preflop capper reraises your raise. Now you're in a bit of a tough spot. You could call this reraise and see the turn--he will bet into you and your only play is to fold unless you improve (which is unlikely). Say you pick up a gutshot now--what do you do, call and chase to the river?? This is not a situation you want to be in. Assuming once more that this is a tight player, I think that if you are reraised on the flop you can safely fold your hand; figuring you must be against KK. If all he has is AK or AA then he HAS to be afraid that you flopped a set with KK or QQ and would be reluctant to cap the betting on the flop esp. with the strength you have represented.

So in short I think your correct play is to raise the flop and go from there. You can save some big bets if it gets reraised and win a small one and a big one if he calls and then bets the river. Or at least save a small bet by playing the hand for a raise on the flop.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
Raisefold the turn, even with the tightest range it's 6 combos you win, 6 combos you lose. this way you go 3 bets when ahead and 2 when behind. AK 3 bets the turn, never.



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that he never three-bets the turn with a hand you're ahead of, but doesn't raising the turn allow him to get away from his hand on the rare occasions that he's out of line?

[oreogod]

wow...that tough. I like both lines, but here I raise the turn (this is of course, if he only 3bets u w/ the goods)

[SA125]

Cap range - AA-JJ AK.

Flop KQx.

Combo's he hit 3-KK/3-QQ/6-AK. Combo's he missed 6-JJ.

JJ he's folding. AK he's calling down. KK-QQ he's raising and you're calling down. You lose 2 out of the 3 scenarios where there's a raise/call down. Calling down is fine.

I made the mistake in the same type scenario. Flop KQJ, I get c/r'd on the flop and call down to see JJ. Stupid.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raisefold the turn, even with the tightest range it's 6 combos you win, 6 combos you lose. this way you go 3 bets when ahead and 2 when behind. AK 3 bets the turn, never.



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that he never three-bets the turn with a hand you're ahead of, but doesn't raising the turn allow him to get away from his hand on the rare occasions that he's out of line?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's getting out of line it's JJ and if JJ is possible then AQ becomes possible, just less possible. I'd be surprised if AQ folded the turn.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
Raisefold the turn, even with the tightest range it's 6 combos you win, 6 combos you lose. this way you go 3 bets when ahead and 2 when behind. AK 3 bets the turn, never.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting. The villain's stats are 13/9/1.3, so he's essentially weak-tight. Do you think there's any chance he will not 3-bet with QQ, meaning that hero will end up betting a losing hand on the river?

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raisefold the turn, even with the tightest range it's 6 combos you win, 6 combos you lose. this way you go 3 bets when ahead and 2 when behind. AK 3 bets the turn, never.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting. The villain's stats are 13/9/1.3, so he's essentially weak-tight. Do you think there's any chance he will not 3-bet with QQ, meaning that hero will end up betting a losing hand on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't see it. I don't think anyone doesn't 3 bet a set on the turn.

[Ian J]

I'm the opp here. I was surprised you had Aces. Before I looked at the HH I just assumed AK when you just called down. I think typically a raise should be put in somewhere, but ggb makes some good points for calling down.