Now or later?

[PokerBob]

Canterbury 15/30 (9 handed)
I am playing well and have 3K in front of me. I have no idea if anyone notices, but I have my "A" game. 2 bad limpers, tight ABC player raises, I 3-bet next in the hijack with J /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, folds to BB (total fish) who calls, both limpers and OR call.

Flop (5 players) (15SB)
J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif
BB checks, 2 limpers check, OR checks, I bet, BB folds, both limpers call, OR now check raises , I....

[Brom]

I'd go for the 3-bet now. There is a chance that the 2 limpers will now fold facing 2 bets cold, plus the possibility of a cap coming from behind them.

The pot is already big enough that you'd like to take this down as soon as possible. There is a chance that the OR might not bet out again on the turn, and you therefore would not be able to make it anything more than 2 SBs to the field anyways. You can also hope that the OR caps the flop and bets into you again on the turn, allowing you to raise anyways, but have all those extra bets in there.

If more than one person is on the flush draw, then they will all pay a lot to see it miss. Charge them now.

[tongni]

Definately later. I don't think you are folding a gutshot here, and the only hands you will see fold are ones that are drawing slim. I pop the turn no matter what card rolls off.

[AceHigh]

Now. You might not get the chance on the turn, you have too much pot equity to pass on this oppurtunity to charge the field.

[GoodOL]

I think this is a CLEAR three bet.

You sometimes just call a CR from your immediate right when it is multiway....if you are certain that the raiser will bet into you on the turn. Then, you can charge the chasers a double turn bet. However, you cannot be certain he will bet the turn (you said he was ABC...he would have bet into you with a hand on the flop hoping you'd raise to clear the field...he has a draw and will check turn if he misses).

[andyfox]

Three things I consider in such situations are 1) what is the highest card on the flop;2) do I have top set or not; and 3) how draw-rich is the flop texture.

The high card is important because the lower it is the more likely is is that the turn will be an overcard and thus the more likely that it will discourage the flop bettor from betting out again on the turn. If I have top set, it's unlikely the original bettor has top pair, so again the less likely he'll continue betting on the turn. And when a flop has a flush draw, it might mean the check-raiser is pushing a draw and would not bet if he misses on the turn.

The limpers are probably more likely to call two more small bets on the flop than they are to call two big bets cold on the turn.

The deciding factor here might be that you 3-bet pre-flop. That is, the check-raiser "knew" that you would be betting the flop and would have checked what he sees as a good hand regardless of what he flopped. All things considered, I'd opt for waiting until the turn.

[worm33]

Easy Easy Easy 3 bet on the flop. Waiting till the turn can only lead to disaster. 10-8 10-9, the ace and king of diamonds all peeling here for 1 bet there prolly not calling 2 more back to them on the flop. What if an ace comes on the turn or the guys got 2 black kings and a diamond comes on the turn. Or the last Jack. Lots of cards that kill your action, and if you let the 2 peelers in for 1 bet on the flop they might catch something they like on the turn. Waiting till the turn is suicide.

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
Three things I consider in such situations are 1) what is the highest card on the flop;2) do I have top set or not; and 3) how draw-rich is the flop texture.


The high card is important because the lower it is the more likely is is that the turn will be an overcard and thus the more likely that it will discourage the flop bettor from betting out again on the turn. If I have top set, it's unlikely the original bettor has top pair, so again the less likely he'll continue betting on the turn. And when a flop has a flush draw, it might mean the check-raiser is pushing a draw and would not bet if he misses on the turn.


The limpers are probably more likely to call two more small bets on the flop than they are to call two big bets cold on the turn.


The deciding factor here might be that you 3-bet pre-flop. That is, the check-raiser "knew" that you would be betting the flop and would have checked what he sees as a good hand regardless of what he flopped. All things considered, I'd opt for waiting until the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm having a hard time following you on this. I was surprised by your last sentence, because to me your arguments seemed to support 3-betting the flop.

Does the third paragraph support 3-betting the flop or waiting for the turn? It would seem to make me want to 3-bet the flop.

It seems as though you're saying that because of the 2nd paragraph and the 4th paragraph, the check-raiser might not bet the turn. Is that right?

[DeeJ]

I 3bet now because of the flush callers needing to be axed, and if all the limpers come in if you call behind then they will almost certainly check through to opening raiser at the turn. If you raise then you'll clear the field anyway, and if a diamond hits you can be in trouble.

I 3 bet. Too many cards will kill your action on the turn, so there is more value raising now. Knocking out weak draws from the limpers is kind of secondary IMO.

[setzf]

A tight ABC player will most likely have a flush draw here meaning that he will probably only bet the turn if he's ahead (only the 2d fills you up), thus in my opinion waiting for the turn to raise is not a good idea since you will usually be raising with the second best hand. Also if the other opponnents are fish they might call a flop cap anyways with a hand that is drawing slim. Plus the pot is already big and there is a small chance the c-raiser or the fish have 77, 22, or even 72. all in all i like three betting here.

[NMcNasty]

You should 3 bet now for value. With that many players in the hand and the nuts you should be getting as many possible bets in the pot at whatever the opportunity. If someone has a smaller set there will be a bet a raise and a reraise on the turn regardless of whether you 3bet the flop or not. So by not 3 betting you're just missing out on an opportunity to get a few extra bets. If someone makes 2 pair on the turn the same thing will happen. You're opponents are bad, and with a pot that large they could be calling on the flop with virtually anything. Putting your opponents on flush draws and deciding that you might get 1 or 2 extra bets by waiting to raise is giving them too much credit. The pot is too large and your opponents range of hands is too wide for you to do anything but jam.

[PokerBob]

Canterbury 15/30 (9 handed)
I am playing well and have 3K in front of me. I have no idea if anyone notices, but I have my "A" game. 2 bad limpers, tight ABC player raises, I 3-bet next in the hijack with J /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, folds to BB (total fish) who calls, both limpers and OR call.

Flop (5 players) (15SB)
J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif
BB checks, 2 limpers check, OR checks, I bet, BB folds, both limpers call, OR now check raises , I called thinking that this would be a perfect time to protect my hand with a turn raise. Of course the horrible A /images/graemlins/heart.gif hits the turn freezing everyone. meh. i bet it the rest of the way and won. the OR claims to have had KK. I believe him.

[bicyclekick]

wow that tight abc player plays bad. How bout 4 bet pre-flop, or given that he didn't...that is SO the spot to bet into the 3 better on the flop. C/R is so silly all you're doing is building a pot with 1 pair after everyone calls to chase...yay.

[sfer]

In a similar hand a couple of years ago Dynasty said something along the lines of surely you would 3-bet A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? Why not top set?

[andyfox]

Turn card here is going to be an undercard to the jack 75% of the time. So that's an argument in favor of later. Hero having top set is an argument in favor of now. The two diamond is an argument in favor of now.

In general, I prefer to do everything I can to win a pot rather than win an extra bet or two. So my third paragraph, for me, is an argument in favor of waiting.

The 4th pargraph is an argument in favor of waiting. That is, villain's check-raise is more likely a real hand because hero 3-bet pre-flop. Thus he's more likely to follow through with a turn bet.

So it's a close decision I think and I lean in favor of waiting.

[andyfox]

"the horrible A hits the turn freezing everyone. meh. i bet it the rest of the way and won."

Not so sure it's a "horrible" card. How many calls did you get on the turn? On the river?

The original raiser wouldn't have 4-bet preflop with K-K?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
"the horrible A hits the turn freezing everyone. meh. i bet it the rest of the way and won."

Not so sure it's a "horrible" card. How many calls did you get on the turn? On the river?

The original raiser wouldn't have 4-bet preflop with K-K?

[/ QUOTE ]

well, he didn't. i'm not sure why. i suppose he could have been lying about having KK, but i doubt it. i think the pot ended HU with he and I.

[andyfox]

Yeah, K-K makes sense post-flop: he check raised a J-7-2 board and then check-called when an ace hit.

[Jeffage]

Easy one. Go ahead and raise any turn card.

Jeff

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy one. Go ahead and raise any turn card.



[/ QUOTE ]

so later?

[Jeffage]

Yes. This pot is already big and you aren't driving anyone out on the flop (particularly with a flush draw). I would lay the hammer down on the turn...who knows, if it comes low and the solid player has AA he may 3-bet the turn for you.

Jeff

Later. Just call and raise the turn, because the bad limpers arent throwing the flush draw away anyways. They might however, much for two BB on the turn if they miss. Besides, you've got the current nuts, you can slowplay a little here, bob.

[obsidian]

I all call and pop the turn. You aren't pushing out any draws. Make them pay more. The turn is unfortunate although not as unfortunate as a K.

[Hamlet]

I tend to raise this now. I think there are more hands that give you action on the flop than the turn. I tend to play flush draws fast on the flop as well. This allows me to jam the flop and get action all the way against 1-pair hands.

[DcifrThs]

i dont see what the dilema here is. drawful board with many players, you have a monster, but a vulnerable hand relatively speaking. you have all kinds of redraws.

3bet.

3bet.

Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn card here is going to be an undercard to the jack 75% of the time. So that's an argument in favor of later. Hero having top set is an argument in favor of now. The two diamond is an argument in favor of now.

In general, I prefer to do everything I can to win a pot rather than win an extra bet or two. So my third paragraph, for me, is an argument in favor of waiting.

The 4th pargraph is an argument in favor of waiting. That is, villain's check-raise is more likely a real hand because hero 3-bet pre-flop. Thus he's more likely to follow through with a turn bet.

So it's a close decision I think and I lean in favor of waiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are neglecting to take into account the possibility of the flop being capped AND villian leads turn.

or flop being capped but wont be if you call. AND the possility it WOULD have been capped if you 3 bet and the turn comes bad costing you both the flop bets AND extra bets on the turn from the c'rer slowing down.

Barron

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
In a similar hand a couple of years ago Dynasty said something along the lines of surely you would 3-bet A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? Why not top set?

[/ QUOTE ]

In both cases, you have an immediate opportunity to gain value by raising. With the flush draw though, there is an excellent chance that you will not be nearly as excited about raising the turn. Even worse, the times you are still happy to raise, a major scare card has just hit the board, likely limiting your action. With top set, it's much more likely that, should you choose to pass on your raise now, you will be rewarded with an opportunity to raise on the next street in a spot where your opponents may be willing to give you some action.

Further, with the draw, you are happy to have your opponents check to you on the turn, sight unseen. With the nuts, you'd prefer to have lots of action on the turn when it gets to you.

You raise the draw because you want free cards and because this may be the only opportunity you have to raise this hand for value. With top set, both of these considerations are diminshed, so it's not as clear that you should 3-bet, although you should still 3-bet a lot.

-Eric

[elindauer]

When making this decision, I consider two things:

1. Hand protection: Are there hands that my opponents are likely to hold that I want to fold, that are correct to call for 2 on the flop, but not 2 on the turn?

In this case, I answer no. So I move on to question #2.

2. Value: Can I get more money in a pot I expect to win by waiting for the turn?

In this case, the answer is also no. I note that the raiser may well be raising a draw for value, that an overcard or flush card can hit to scare him, and that my turn raise faces the field with two cold. All bad news for getting more money in the pot.


Raise now.

Good luck.
Eric

[MarkSummers]

If there was only the two of you, you could waitand pop him on the turn. Even then, you might want to 3 bet. With the two other players who are in though, this becomes a standard 3 bet. You have the nuts but you are vulnerable. Don't let them get a cheap opportunity at a diamond.

This pot is huge and you need to focus on winning it, not gaining an extra bet on the turn. In order to do this, you must 3 bet the flop.

[andyfox]

"This pot is huge and you need to focus on winning it, not gaining an extra bet on the turn."

If the focus is on winning it, I think the better plan is to wait. Not many players cold-call two big bets on the turn. It's hard in today's games to keep players from seeing the turn; it's less hard to keep them from seeing the river.

[JJNJustin]

reraise right then and there. Simply calling wont knock out any gut shots in the blind or the limpers. If the check raiser has flopped a set of 7's, he will cap thinking you have two high suited diamonds or an over pair. You are the aggressor pre-flop. Keep in the lead, especially with this monster. By 3-betting before the flop you have made the pot too big to slowplay. If your opponent bets into you on the turn and a diamond appears, you have the option of calling or raising. If he choses to check, you have the option to check or to bet. You still control the action because of your position.

[worm33]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont see what the dilema here is. drawful board with many players, you have a monster, but a vulnerable hand relatively speaking. you have all kinds of redraws.

3bet.

3bet.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]