How widespread is cheating?

[Synergistic Explosions]

So, a guy shows me how he cheats online. I see for the first time how easy it's done. Now I'm bummed. Now I think it has to be very rampant, considering how easily it's done. Anything that is easy and can make lots of money will be abused by many.

So I wonder just how widespread this is?

I've been thinking for hours and hours how a site could stop it. But I can't think of an easy way they can. I have some ideas, but I don't think they'd be practical.

I can tell you one thing though, those win 6 sng's in a row for a jackpot bonus are prime real estate for people like him.

So now, when I'm playing in tourneys, I'm wondering how many of the players are using multiple accounts. When I'm in a ring game and two players sandwich me with raises and reraises, then one folds on the river, I feel like they are maybe one player with two accounts. I'm becoming paranoid but maybe with reason. I know now how easy it is to do.

Any comments?

[solucky]

If you define cheating as any that give you a edge than its very widespread. In fact any tools like calculators and trackers are cheating, but sure playing against one guy with 6 + seats in a sit and go is another thing.

[KKbluff]

Kinda depends on the site that offers the 6 SNG wins in a row bonus.

I would be MUCH more careful on a site that offers the 6 wins in a row jackpot vs. pokerstars(or other sites that doesnt have this feature.)

Maybe email support and ask them how they try to thwart this kind of collusion.

If they cant give you a real concrete answer then I guess the question becomes "why play on this site"?

Cheating a site out of their 6 wins in a row deal seems like a terrible idea, you can be sure they will review and look for collusion

[timprov]

I've never colluded/cheated. So it's < 100%.

[PuertoKid]

There is money involved. Of course there is cheating. Anybody who believes otherwise is being naive.

[ QUOTE ]
I know now how easy it is to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
Easy in theory, but very, very risky.

First thing the "it's easy to cheat" people don't realize is that some sites automatically check that a table doesn't have more than one player from the same IP address. They may not check every game, but when they do, bye-bye money.

And you've seen how many posts there are from people who THINK there was collusion even when there wasn't? Imagine those same people e-mailing Party or Stars when they get "sandwiched." Those sites employ people to specifically look for cheating, and software that looks for consistent patterns.

And since cheaters tend also to be dumbasses, most will likely be caught before they have a chance to figure out how to make it work.

Edit: Just thought of the possibility that OP was trying to parody newbie "my friend showed me how to cheat" posts. If so, add humor next time.

[Rudbaeck]

The only reasonable way to collude is to do it with yourself. To do that you need two internet connections and two computers. (You must have separate IP addys for your two personas.) You also need someones identity on loan for you alternate persona.

If you collude with a friend you have just made a huge -EV mistake. You trust a cheat with money! If anything is certain then it's that there is NO honor among thieves.

And then there is the logistic problem. Not only do you need to find a decent table with a seat in the proper position open. You need two find a table with two seats in the proper position against the fish and each other for each table you play. I shudder to think what a nightmare that kind of table selection would be. I'd atleast assume you'd quadruple your table selection time.

If you put someone in the middle the site will get wise to it more or less instantly. So you can basically only do 'low edge' collusion, because all 'high edge' collusion is trivial to detect. So, you just spent an extra hour to setup four tables such that your win rate might improve from 2 to 2.25BB/100. Congratulations.

So, now you're a cheat who plays 4 tables with a win rate of 2.25BB/100 when you could just as easy play 8 tables with a winrate of 2BB/100 and a lower setup time. And you're likely to lose your deposits occasionally.

Real clever!

[aucu]

The possible cheating that wod worry me is collusion among Bots.

I'm not worried now but you have to watch out, cause some day they will come.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not worried now but you have to watch out, cause some day they will come.

[/ QUOTE ]

You misses it, they already came!

[FlFishOn]

You're guessing/dreaming. There are lots of high function cheats playing a couple seats all the time. Not me mind you, but I have this friend, see...

Feel free to count on the crack staff of Party poker to protect your interests.

[ QUOTE ]
You're guessing/dreaming. There are lots of high function cheats playing a couple seats all the time. Not me mind you, but I have this friend, see...

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the latest in your series of paranoid good laughs.

[radek2166]

3 players. 200 sng's all in the same room. even if you dont put the squeeze on. you konw 6 cards each.

not high tech but an edge. a big edge

Of course there will be people who collude, but I imagine it really only occurs at the higher limits, and its only a very very small minority of people who partake in it. What I am more worried about is people finding out ways past the encryptions and either being able to see what cards are out/coming out or even able to control the fall of the cards.

Only complete idiots and world class players would collude at texas holdem, let alone a texas holdem SnG. Omaha Hi on the other hand...

[Synergistic Explosions]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know now how easy it is to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
Easy in theory, but very, very risky.

First thing the "it's easy to cheat" people don't realize is that some sites automatically check that a table doesn't have more than one player from the same IP address. They may not check every game, but when they do, bye-bye money.

And you've seen how many posts there are from people who THINK there was collusion even when there wasn't? Imagine those same people e-mailing Party or Stars when they get "sandwiched." Those sites employ people to specifically look for cheating, and software that looks for consistent patterns.

And since cheaters tend also to be dumbasses, most will likely be caught before they have a chance to figure out how to make it work.

Edit: Just thought of the possibility that OP was trying to parody newbie "my friend showed me how to cheat" posts. If so, add humor next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, absolutely serious here. You think like I use to think about it.

As far as playing from the same IP address, he doesn't. 10 different real people accounts, from ten different IP addresses from all over the country and some outside the country, played from many different computers.

I've watched him in action, trust me when I say it's not easy to catch these types.

As far as the win 6 sng's in a row promotion, he rotates his 10 aliases in and out of games so no two play more than a few of them together during the 6 game stretch.

I seriously think its a huge problem. I just have no real idea how pervasive it really is. The cheater says many people do it. I hope not. But I'd imagine so.

[ QUOTE ]
No, absolutely serious here. You think like I use to think about it.

As far as playing from the same IP address, he doesn't. 10 different real people accounts, from ten different IP addresses from all over the country and some outside the country, played from many different computers.

[/ QUOTE ]
If that's what it takes for this "easy" cheating, then the answer is no, it's not widespread, because it's not "easy."

And he still can't seem to win 6 SNGs in a row, even with his incredibly effective, yet undetectable, cheating scheme? He should have been able to do that his first day.

If you're really concerned you would have reported this anyway - in fact, because you revealed that he plays the 6-SNG jackpot promotion, I'd be surprised if someone reading this thread doesn't rat him out.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Synergistic Explosions]

[ QUOTE ]
And he still can't seem to win 6 SNGs in a row, even with his incredibly effective, yet undetectable, cheating scheme? He should have been able to do that his first day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, he did win one of them. He was also paid after only a 90 minute review. So there detection systems in place don't seem to be adequate.

As far as reporting him. It wouldn't matter. He'd be right back at it with another identity if he wished, he has up to 10 kosher ones. If one gets shut down, it doesn't really matter. I only know of certain ones at certain sites, not enough to stop him. Plus there are so many sites and skins now, he can move on like a locust.

From responces I see here, I don't think people really think its a problem, or don't understand how it can be an advantage. The different ISP's is not a deterrent as I said. That has been solved so easily theres no deterrent.

There seems to be an easy work around for all the present security checks already being used.

That's the problem.

After searching around a bit, the only solution I could find that made sense to stop cheating like this was made by Fossilman. I'll try to find his suggestion and repost it. But that would only work in ring games, not tourneys or SNG's.

[ QUOTE ]
Raymer, who before turning pro in 2004 was a patent attorney, suggested sites anticipate future schemes by monitoring players' variance—a statistical measure of how far a player is from his or her expected win within a given hour. A high variance means taking on a lot of risk in exchange for winning more pots, which is what the pros do. But players who incur little risk while winning lots of hands are probably cheating, he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, he did win one of them. He was also paid after only a 90 minute review. So there detection systems in place don't seem to be adequate.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't be surprised if the review is ongoing, if you know what I mean...

[ QUOTE ]
As far as reporting him. It wouldn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm calling bull on all this right now. It's starting to sound fishy.

Of course, I'm all ears if you could be forthcoming with the rest of the details... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[curtains]

You should turn this player in to partypoker/pokerstars or whatever site it is. Anyone who demonstrates to me that they cheat in any way whatsoever, will be immediatley reported regardless of their relationship to me.

You can do something to help by at least making the world more difficult for one player who cheats. If you sit around and do nothing, and others like you do the same, then there is a lot less chance that such things will be detected.

[Synergistic Explosions]

Sites funded entirely by Western Union or player to player transfers should be monitored closely in my opinon. If that account never makes a withdrawal after playing in cash games alot, that should also be a warning sign. They should then find out who that account loses most of their money to, or does a p2p transfer to. That would lead eventually to the main account the cheater uses to withdraw from.

Also, pay attention to accounts that are initially funded by free roll winnings. That is another easy way for fake accounts to get money into them without making a deposit.

You see, if they are using a friends name who lives in Tahiti to create an account under, then when it comes time to withdraw from that account they have no real valid way to do it. So they have to either dump the chips, which I know is done, but that leaves a trail. Or they can p2p transfer, which leaves another huge trail.

I think the last thing they want to do is have to create a withdrawing method set up in that fake accounts name, then try to keep it straight with the relative or friend who's information they are using. So they have to move their multiple account winnings ultimately to the one main real person account in the end through other methods. So the sites, with enough resources for security, could find some trails if they can catch a sniff of impropriety. That would take some man hours though I would guess.

[radek2166]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know now how easy it is to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
Easy in theory, but very, very risky.

First thing the "it's easy to cheat" people don't realize is that some sites automatically check that a table doesn't have more than one player from the same IP address. They may not check every game, but when they do, bye-bye money.

And you've seen how many posts there are from people who THINK there was collusion even when there wasn't? Imagine those same people e-mailing Party or Stars when they get "sandwiched." Those sites employ people to specifically look for cheating, and software that looks for consistent patterns.

And since cheaters tend also to be dumbasses, most will likely be caught before they have a chance to figure out how to make it work.

Edit: Just thought of the possibility that OP was trying to parody newbie "my friend showed me how to cheat" posts. If so, add humor next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, absolutely serious here. You think like I use to think about it.

As far as playing from the same IP address, he doesn't. 10 different real people accounts, from ten different IP addresses from all over the country and some outside the country, played from many different computers.

I've watched him in action, trust me when I say it's not easy to catch these types.

As far as the win 6 sng's in a row promotion, he rotates his 10 aliases in and out of games so no two play more than a few of them together during the 6 game stretch.

I seriously think its a huge problem. I just have no real idea how pervasive it really is. The cheater says many people do it. I hope not. But I'd imagine so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd really like the details. just to understand how it is done.

[Mason Hellmuth]

TCP/IP Tunneling.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I just wanted to let you all know that I printed out this thread so I could take a crap on it.

[TheGame1020]

It is truly wonderful you have this great information and you can share your all powerful knowledge of the online cheating world with us. You are awesome.

You should report this guy ASAP. I don't care if it won't matter you should do it out of respect for all poker players. Cheating is bad for business for all players who are playing in these games fairly. I don't see how you could have any respect for this guy let alone talk to him again if you are an honest player.

Do the right thing, report this guy and never talk to him again. He is nothing more than a thief. What he does and holding up a 711 are no different in principle.

Get some honor, report this guy and never talk to him again.

A last word from me: what this person is doing is committing wire fraud, which is against the laws of most civilized countries.

And I would expect that at the point where your friend has won $75,000 from Noble Poker this way, legal authorities may be inspired to get involved. Interpol, FBI, IRS...we're talking about non-trivial sums of money now. We're talking time in the pound-you-in-the-ass prison.

This is serious stuff, and if I were your friend, I'd be looking over my shoulder.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

In fact, as you've admitted to seeing him work, you could be charged as an accessory.

[TheGame1020]

[ QUOTE ]
A last word from me: what this person is doing is committing wire fraud, which is against the laws of most civilized countries.

And I would expect that at the point where your friend has won $75,000 from Noble Poker this way, legal authorities may be inspired to get involved. Interpol, FBI, IRS...we're talking about non-trivial sums of money now.

This is serious stuff, and if I were your friend, I'd be looking over my shoulder.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope he gets hit by a [censored] bus and dies tomorrow.

[Synergistic Explosions]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, as you've admitted to seeing him work, you could be charged as an accessory.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's funny. I'll be sure to get a lawyer tomorrow.

[Losing all]

[ QUOTE ]
Sites funded entirely by Western Union or player to player transfers should be monitored closely in my opinon. If that account never makes a withdrawal after playing in cash games alot, that should also be a warning sign. They should then find out who that account loses most of their money to, or does a p2p transfer to. That would lead eventually to the main account the cheater uses to withdraw from.

Also, pay attention to accounts that are initially funded by free roll winnings. That is another easy way for fake accounts to get money into them without making a deposit.

You see, if they are using a friends name who lives in Tahiti to create an account under, then when it comes time to withdraw from that account they have no real valid way to do it. So they have to either dump the chips, which I know is done, but that leaves a trail. Or they can p2p transfer, which leaves another huge trail.

I think the last thing they want to do is have to create a withdrawing method set up in that fake accounts name, then try to keep it straight with the relative or friend who's information they are using. So they have to move their multiple account winnings ultimately to the one main real person account in the end through other methods. So the sites, with enough resources for security, could find some trails if they can catch a sniff of impropriety. That would take some man hours though I would guess.

[/ QUOTE ]



Sounds like a major pain in the ass. Not to mention the high chance of getting caught with all the paper trails leading back to a small # of accts. I'll wish balls cancer on this turd, but I don't really care.

[radek2166]

[ QUOTE ]
A last word from me: what this person is doing is committing wire fraud, which is against the laws of most civilized countries.

And I would expect that at the point where your friend has won $75,000 from Noble Poker this way, legal authorities may be inspired to get involved. Interpol, FBI, IRS...we're talking about non-trivial sums of money now. We're talking time in the pound-you-in-the-ass prison.

This is serious stuff, and if I were your friend, I'd be looking over my shoulder.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

In fact, as you've admitted to seeing him work, you could be charged as an accessory.

[/ QUOTE ]



Dont forget. If he is in the US (as most of us are) he is comiting a crime in the first place.

I know in NV it is a felony to gamble on-line.

[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to let you all know that I printed out this thread so I could take a crap on it.

[/ QUOTE ]
very rude /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[RyGreen18]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course there will be people who collude, but I imagine it really only occurs at the higher limits, and its only a very very small minority of people who partake in it. What I am more worried about is people finding out ways past the encryptions and either being able to see what cards are out/coming out or even able to control the fall of the cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have witnessed several of my dumb fraternity brothers try to collude, and i gotta tell ya, they are pretty bad at it and it definately doesn't compensate for their poor play

[craig r]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course there will be people who collude, but I imagine it really only occurs at the higher limits, and its only a very very small minority of people who partake in it. What I am more worried about is people finding out ways past the encryptions and either being able to see what cards are out/coming out or even able to control the fall of the cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have witnessed several of my dumb fraternity brothers try to collude, and i gotta tell ya, they are pretty bad at it and it definately doesn't compensate for their poor play

[/ QUOTE ]

Frat boys are dumb????

craig

[FlFishOn]

I love this attitude. I can mentally picture a 5 year old with his fingers in his ears saying "NAy, Nay, nay, I can't hear you".

It's called cognitive dissonance. It means you can not reconcile your poker-based life with the idea you're getting cheated without recourse. Grow up.

[FlFishOn]

"What he does and holding up a 711 are no different in principle. "

Sh+t like that makes the rest of your position all the more weak.

No one takes a bullet in a SNG hijacking.

[FlFishOn]

It's so much more than that with nearly zero risk. Moving a few chips from large to small stack is +++EV.

[gambelero2]

I don't post often, but those of you that recognize the name know I usually have something important to say.

1. This is an important thread, because there is already a lot of collusion or the potential for it.

2. The posts I've read so far make the following important points.

I. It's hard not easy, harder at sites that require Neteller like verification.

Low level cheating is easy to spot (raising each other, putting people in the middle in limit games and stupid stuff like that), so successful cheats are using high level cheating, sharing cards.

The high level cheating would give an edge, but not a big one. The HE limit player who calculated a .25 to .5 big bet an hour would probably be close to correct. Most high level cheats are going to focus on pot limit omaha. More cards and the nuts (anyone else have an overwhelming temptation to use a z instead of an s) and the location one card can be huge.

Prizes for winning 6 sngs and sngs in general are the first places cheats would go.

Cheats are stupid and play bad. They also seem logically oblivious to the fact that other people have moral codes and thus love to brag to anyone who will listen.

Finally the sites need to keep constant and aggressive vigilance and they are too stupid to be trusted to do it.

We should encourage Mason to contact the sites and ask them to allow a group of us to check their security system and educate their almost certainly inadequatelly trained personnel. Based on many years of experience, I think we would be shocked at how little they do in this regard.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In fact, as you've admitted to seeing him work, you could be charged as an accessory.


[/ QUOTE ]
Now that's funny. I'll be sure to get a lawyer tomorrow.

[/ QUOTE ]
- I don't think that I'd be laughing. I really would get that lawyer. IMO you're just as guilty as your supposed "friend" if you allow this behavior to go unpunished.

[Synergistic Explosions]

I wouldn't consider someone I meet online as a "friend" you jackass.

The point of this thread is to bring to light how we as players have disadvantages brought upon us by players who cheat.

You seem to think I'm the cheat because I bring it to light.

Posting someones name who isn't me is a low class move also.

You can go to hell dude. No one will miss you. Ya lowlife.

[Shoe]

Does he really win often enough to make up for all the extra buy ins?

[PJM1206]

On two occaisions I thought there was cheating at my table. One time I lucked out and won the pot; I think there was about $60 in a $1-2 game. The other time I lost. In both situations I turned the screen names into the site and told them I thought they were cheating. Both sites jumped on the e-mail and reviwed the session as well as a number of other inidactors like "do they play together often" etc etc. I dont think you can totally stop the cheater but I think the sites can make it difficult enough to not make it worth while. If you suspect that there is cheating you should notify the site with the specifics and they will take it from there.

[kdog]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as reporting him. It wouldn't matter. He'd be right back at it with another identity if he wished, he has up to 10 kosher ones. If one gets shut down, it doesn't really matter. I only know of certain ones at certain sites, not enough to stop him. Plus there are so many sites and skins now, he can move on like a locust.



[/ QUOTE ]

SE you're usually one of the more level headed posters in the Zoo. Regardless of how many more identities this guy has waiting to be used or how many sites there are he can move to, he needs to be reported and you know it. Give the sites something to work with and maybe they not only unravel his scheme, they come up with something to stop it in the future. Do the right thing and report this scumbag.

[vilemerchant]

As part of the online poker community it's pretty clear you have a responsibility to report this guy. It may or may not stop him, but if he gets a few accounts confiscated it'll put a dent in his bankroll and at least leave him wondering if it's really worth the trouble to be a cheating scumbag. It seems however you don't really mind that players are being swindled so I rate the chances of you doing the right thing as very low. You're an arsehole.

[ QUOTE ]
The point of this thread is to bring to light how we as players have disadvantages brought upon us by players who cheat.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, the point of this thread has become how an otherwise intelligent person rationalizes his choice to keep a criminal's secret, then sit and wring his hands over "widespread cheating," instead of doing his part and reporting a known cheater.

You're betraying everyone you say you're trying to "enlighten." That's WAY more disturbing than the thought of sites not discovering cheats.

Think about it.

[Blarg]

Someone I knew a few years back told me a friend of his showed him his huge collection of child pornography.

What would prompt his friend to show him something like that?, I had to wonder.

He didn't turn his friend in, or sound particularly bothered by his friend's, umm, hobby.

I don't understand the world anymore.