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andyfox
09-25-2005, 01:30 AM
Not sure if there will be a debate on Russell's anti-Christian views, but in case there is, I thought it might be useful to summarize Russell's arguments in his lecture "Why I Am Not A Christian."

First, he defined a Christian: "[T]here are two different items which are quite essential to anyone calling himself a Christian. The first is . . . that you must believe in God and immortality. Then, further than that, as the name implies, you must have some kind of belief about Christ. you must have at the very lowest the belief that Christ was, if not divine, at least the best and wisest of men."

He then said why he was not a Christian: "I do not believe in God and in immortality; and . . . I do not think that Christ was the best and wisest of men, although I grant him a very high degree of moral goodness."

He then cites arguments for the existence of God, which he feels are faulty:

1) The First Cause Argument: "[E]verything we see in this world has a cause, and as you go back in the chain of causes further and further you must come to a First Cause, and to that First Cause you give the name of God." He rejects this argument: "I read John Stuart Mill's Autobiography, and I there found this sentence: 'My father taught me that the question, Who made me? cannot be answered, since it immediately suggests the further question, Who made God?' That very simple sentence showed me, as I still think, the fallacy in the argument of the First Cause. If everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause. If there can be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the world as God, so that there cannot be any validity in that argument. . . . There is no reason why the world could not have come into being without a cause; nor, on the other hand, is there any reason why it should not have always existed. There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imagination."

2) The Natural-Law Argument: "People observed the planets going around the sun according to the law of gravitation, and they thought that God had given a behest to these planets to move in that particular fashion, and that was why they did so. That was, of course, a convenient and simple explanation that saved them the trouble of looking any further for any explanation of the law of gravitation. . . . [A] great many things we thought were Natural Laws are really human conventions.

[He continues:] "The laws of nature are . . . statistical averages such as would emerge from the laws of chance; and that makes the whole business of natural law much less impressive than it formerly was. . . . [T]he whole idea that natural laws imply a law-giver is due to a confusion between natural and human laws. Human laws are behests commanding you to behave a certain way, in which way you may choose to behave, or you may choose not to behave; but natural laws are a description of how things do in fact behave, and, being a mere description of what they in fact do, you cannot argue that there must be somebody who told them to do that, because even supposing that there were you are then faced with the question, Why did God issue just those natural laws and no others? If you say that he did it simply from his own good pleasure, and without any reason, you then find that there is something which is not subject to law, and so your train of natural law is interrupted.

"The arguments that are used for the existence of God change their character as time goes on. They were at first hard intellectual arguments embodying certain quite definite fallacies. As we come to modern times they become less respectable intellectually and more and more affected by a kind of moralizing vagueness."

3) The Argument from Design: Russell defines this argument as: “[E]verything in the world is made just so that we can manage to live in the world, and if the world was ever so little different we could not manage to live in it. everything in the world is made just so that we can manage to live in the world, and if the world was ever so little different we could not manage to live in it.”

He then says, “When you come to look into this argument from design, it is a most astonishing thing that people can believe that this world, with all the things that are in it, with all its defects, should be the best that omnipotence and omniscience have been able to produce in millions of years. I really cannot believe it. Do you think that, if you were granted omnipotence and omniscience and millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than the Ku Klux Klan, the Fascisti, and Mr. Winston Churchill?”

4) The Moral Arguments for Deity: For Russell, this essentially boils down to “there would be no right and wrong unless God existed.” His case against this argument: “If you are going to say, as theologians do, that God is good, you must then say that right and wrong have some meaning which is independent of God's fiat, because God's fiats are good and not bad independently of the mere fact that he made them. If you are going to say that, you will then have to say that it is not only through God that right and wrong came into being, but that they are in their essence logically anterior to God.”

5) The Argument for the Remedying of Injustice: which he defines as “the existence of God is required in order to bring justice into the world . . . [I]f you are going to have justice in the universe as a whole you have to suppose a future life to redress the balance of life here on earth, and so they say that there must be a God, and that there must be Heaven and Hell in order that in the long run there may be justice..”

He counters this argument: “Supposing you got a crate of oranges that you opened, and you found all the top layer of oranges bad, you would not argue: ‘The underneath ones must be good, so as to redress the balance.’ You would say: ‘Probably the whole lot is a bad consignment;’ and that is really what a scientific person would argue about the universe. He would say: ‘Here we find in this world a great deal of injustice, and so far as that goes that is a reason for supposing that justice does not rule in the world; and therefore so far as it goes it affords a moral argument against deity and not in favor of one.’"

Russell then sums up why he thinks most people believe in God: "Most people believe in God because they have been taught from early infancy to do it, and that is the main reason. Then I think that the next most powerful reason is the wish for safety, a sort of feeling that there is a big brother who will look after you. That plays a very profound part in influencing people's desire for a belief in God."

In the next section of his lecture, he considers the character of Jesus: “[On] the question whether Christ was the best and the wisest of men. It is generally taken for granted that we should all agree that that was so. I do not myself.” He asserts that there were defects in Christ’s teaching:

“Christ certainly thought his second coming would occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people who were living at that time. He believed His second coming would happen during the lifetime of many then living. That was the belief of his earlier followers, and it was the basis of a good deal of His moral teaching. He thought the second coming was going to be very soon."

He also finds a defect in Christ’s moral character:
“There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person that is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. . . I really do not think that a person with a proper degree of kindliness in his nature would have put fears and terrors of this sort into the world. . . I think all this doctrine, that hell-fire is a punishment for sin, is a doctrine of cruelty. It is a doctrine that put cruelty into the world, and gave the world generations of cruel torture; and the Christ of the Gospels, if you could take Him as his chroniclers represent Him, would certainly have to be considered partly responsible for that."

Russell then states that he believes most people accept religion based on emotion, rather than on reason:

"I do not think that the real reason that people accept religion has anything to do with argumentation. They accept religion on emotional grounds. One is often told that it is a very wrong thing to attack religion, because religion makes men virtuous. So I am told; I have not noticed it.
the idea -- that we should all be wicked if we did not hold to the Christian religion. It seems to me that the people who have held to it have been for the most part extremely wicked. You find this curious fact, that the more intense has been the religion of any period and the more profound has been the dogmatic belief, the greater has been the cruelty and the worse has been the state of affairs. In the so-called Ages of faith, when men really did believe the Christian religion in all its completeness, there was the Inquisition, with all its tortures; there were millions of unfortunate women burned as witches; and there was every kind of cruelty practiced upon all sorts of people in the name of religion.

[He continues:] "You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress of humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or ever mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world."


Next, he states that the Church has retarded human progress:
"There are a great many ways in which at the present moment the church, by its insistence upon what it chooses to call morality, inflicts upon all sorts of people undeserved and unnecessary suffering. And of course, as we know, it is in its major part an opponent still of progress and improvement in all the ways that diminish suffering in the world, because it has chosen to label as morality a certain narrow set of rules of conduct which have nothing to do with human happiness"

And that religion is based on fear:

"Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly . . . the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear is the basis of the whole thing -- fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand-in-hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things. In this world we can now begin a little to understand things, and a little to master them by the help of science, which has forced its way step by step against the Christian religion, against the churches, and against the opposition of all the old precepts. Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many generations. Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach us, no longer to look around for imaginary supports, no longer to invent allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to make this world a fit place to live in, instead of the sort of place that the churches in all these centuries have made it."

Finally his conclusion:

"Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear is the basis of the whole thing -- fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand-in-hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things. In this world we can now begin a little to understand things, and a little to master them by the help of science, which has forced its way step by step against the Christian religion, against the churches, and against the opposition of all the old precepts. Science can help us to get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many generations. Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach us, no longer to look around for imaginary supports, no longer to invent allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to make this world a fit place to live in, instead of the sort of place that the churches in all these centuries have made it."

sexdrugsmoney
09-25-2005, 01:45 AM
Oh the plagarism!

Better formatted and referenced here (http://www.users.drew.edu/%7Ejlenz/whynot.html).

Aytumious
09-25-2005, 04:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Oh the plagarism!

Better formatted and referenced here (http://www.users.drew.edu/%7Ejlenz/whynot.html).

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you misspelled plagiarism. Second, the OP is not plagiarism since he is not pawning it off as his own material.

Nice link though.

sexdrugsmoney
09-25-2005, 05:08 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh the plagarism!

Better formatted and referenced here (http://www.users.drew.edu/%7Ejlenz/whynot.html).

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you misspelled plagiarism. Second, the OP is not plagiarism since he is not pawning it off as his own material.

Nice link though.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad re: the spelling, but in my experience Universities often treat non-references similar to plagiarism under their academic honesty programs.

Yet again, perhaps that says something about the anal retentiveness of academia. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

gumpzilla
09-25-2005, 09:58 AM
Unless I'm wrong, all of this material is taken from the same lecture/essay, "Why I Am Not a Christian." I have read that essay before and all of this looks like it was taken from it. He states that up front. Seems pretty well referenced to me, so what are you talking about?

andyfox
09-25-2005, 12:26 PM
"Not sure if there will be a debate on Russell's anti-Christian views, but in case there is, I thought it might be useful to summarize Russell's arguments in his lecture 'Why I Am Not A Christian'."

This is how I prefaced my post. I was simply trying to post a truncated version of Russell's essay summarizing what he said, but including extensive quotes so as not to have posters conclude I was imposing my own editorial views on what he said.

I thought the proposed debate would be interesting and was trying to provide some background for those who were unaware of Russell's famous lecture.

09-25-2005, 01:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
but in my experience Universities often treat non-references similar to plagiarism under their academic honesty programs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy, you like to nitpick and invent things to complain about, huh? (1) The very first line of his post clearly references the source, (2) Are you confusing this internet forum with a university requiring a certain bibliography format? Troll on, brother.

BluffTHIS!
09-25-2005, 06:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
1) The First Cause Argument: "[E]verything we see in this world has a cause, and as you go back in the chain of causes further and further you must come to a First Cause, and to that First Cause you give the name of God." He rejects this argument: "I read John Stuart Mill's Autobiography, and I there found this sentence: 'My father taught me that the question, Who made me? cannot be answered, since it immediately suggests the further question, Who made God?' That very simple sentence showed me, as I still think, the fallacy in the argument of the First Cause. If everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause. If there can be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the world as God, so that there cannot be any validity in that argument. . . . There is no reason why the world could not have come into being without a cause; nor, on the other hand, is there any reason why it should not have always existed. There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imagination."

[/ QUOTE ]

If I define God thusly: "The first cause of of our known universe which itself is self-sustaining and without cause and thus has always existed", then such a definition is not rebutted by Russel's above quote.

Furthermore, it is evident that scientific knowledge has subsequently advanced to the degree that it is a certainty that the universe has not always existed but proceeds from a quantum singularity which by its physical nature makes any empirical determination of its cause impossible even were we present before its explosion in the big bang to observe it with the most advanced scientific instruments that could be possible.

Since the pre-eminent physicist of our time, Dr. Stephen Hawking, has named such a first cause "God", albeit while not believing in a personal god as with christianity, then that should be reason for you to consider it so, unless you maintain that Russell>Hawking in intelligence and knowledge.

chezlaw
09-25-2005, 07:12 PM
Russell
[ QUOTE ]
If everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause.

[/ QUOTE ]

BluffTHIS!
[ QUOTE ]
If I define God thusly: "The first cause of of our known universe which itself is self-sustaining and without cause and thus has always existed", then such a definition is not rebutted by Russel's above quote.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed such a definition is not rebutted by Russell's argument but only because it is falls outside the scope of his argument which is itself an argument against 'everything must have a cause ....' type arguments.

chez

BluffTHIS!
09-25-2005, 07:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Agreed such a definition is not rebutted by Russell's argument but only because it is falls outside the scope of his argument which is itself an argument against 'everything must have a cause ....' type arguments.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Show something that is not "God" and doesn't have a cause then. And if you bring up something subatomic then search for earlier postings on that and my responses.

chezlaw
09-25-2005, 07:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Agreed such a definition is not rebutted by Russell's argument but only because it is falls outside the scope of his argument which is itself an argument against 'everything must have a cause ....' type arguments.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Show something that is not "God" and doesn't have a cause then. And if you bring up something subatomic then search for earlier postings on that and my responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

All I'm saying is that Russell was given as specific response to anyone who says that everything must have a cause.

As you are not claiming that everything must have a cause, Russell's response does not apply.

chez

BluffTHIS!
09-25-2005, 07:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
As you are not claiming that everything must have a cause, Russell's response does not apply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, apart from the First Cause, I am.

chezlaw
09-25-2005, 08:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As you are not claiming that everything must have a cause, Russell's response does not apply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, apart from the First Cause, I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but Russell was only dealing with those who claim everything must have a cause.

You can't fairly suggest there's something wrong with what Russell said just because he didn't deal with your, different, claim.

chez

BluffTHIS!
09-25-2005, 08:12 PM
Russell was in fact claiming that causation could not be used as a valid arguement for the existence of God so I can fairly suggest that his arguments were in error and thus should not be used in furtherance of such claims by others.

chezlaw
09-25-2005, 08:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Russell was in fact claiming that causation could not be used as a valid arguement for the existence of God so I can fairly suggest that his arguments were in error and thus should not be used in furtherance of such claims by others.

[/ QUOTE ]

The quote you referenced just dealt with the 'everything must have a cause' argument in which, not only have you not shown an error, you, in fact, agree with his conclusion.

You can claim he has made errors elsewhere but before anyone should believe you it seems only fair that you should justify you claim.

chez

BluffTHIS!
09-25-2005, 08:46 PM
To the contrary, I state that everything, apart from the First Cause, that we can observe can either be seen to have a cause, and if something cannot then that only means we don't yet know how to determine same, and that no counterexample can be shown, thus proving causation. If you think this wrong then prove it, keeping in mind my earlier comments regarding subatomic processes.

chezlaw
09-25-2005, 09:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
To the contrary, I state that everything, apart from the First Cause, that we can observe can either be seen to have a cause, and if something cannot then that only means we don't yet know how to determine same , and that no counterexample can be shown, thus proving causation. If you think this wrong then prove it, keeping in mind my earlier comments regarding subatomic processes.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If something cannot [be shown to have a cause] then that only means we don't yet know how to determine same

[/ QUOTE ]and
[ QUOTE ]
No counterexample can be shown, thus proving causation.

[/ QUOTE ] are both fallacies.


As Russell mentioned it is seems only right to point out that
[ QUOTE ]
Everything, apart from the First Cause, that we can observe can either be seen to have a cause...

[/ QUOTE ]
implies we can observe something having a cause which is not obviously true. (see David Hume on causation)

chez

BluffTHIS!
09-26-2005, 06:07 AM
I was not precise in the one quote regarding "everything we can observe" I grant. I will reiterate:

N.B. Everything below excepts the First Cause.

1) The vast majority of things and processes can be shown to have a cause.

2) Nothing has yet been proved not to have a cause.

3) Therefore, anything that can be observed but at present cannot be attributed to a cause can be assumed to in fact have one.

That is my refined syllogism. Please note that technically the 2nd major premise is an example of the logical fallacy of affirming a consequent from a negative premise, but that scientists nonetheless use such a premise when it is a factual empirical observation based on much evidence. Thus I would state that the theory of causation is valid. If you think otherwise regarding the second premise then change the wording of my consequent to "it is highly probable". At the very least, you cannot prove the theory of causation not to be the best among alternate theories.

m1illion
09-26-2005, 06:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If I define God thusly: "The first cause of of our known universe which itself is self-sustaining and without cause and thus has always existed", then such a definition is not rebutted by Russel's above quote.

[/ QUOTE ]

Russel did not attempt to rebut such an argument.Such an argument is conveniently loaded with an assumption upon which no one can agree.

BluffTHIS!
09-26-2005, 06:37 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Such an argument is conveniently loaded with an assumption upon which no one can agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then that should be strong evidence that it is true.

09-26-2005, 08:16 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Such an argument is conveniently loaded with an assumption upon which no one can agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then that should be strong evidence that it is true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that directly follows. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Your logical reasoning continues to amaze.

chezlaw
09-26-2005, 11:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I was not precise in the one quote regarding "everything we can observe" I grant. I will reiterate:

N.B. Everything below excepts the First Cause.

1) The vast majority of things and processes can be shown to have a cause.

2) Nothing has yet been proved not to have a cause.

3) Therefore, anything that can be observed but at present cannot be attributed to a cause can be assumed to in fact have one.

That is my refined syllogism. Please note that technically the 2nd major premise is an example of the logical fallacy of affirming a consequent from a negative premise, but that scientists nonetheless use such a premise when it is a factual empirical observation based on much evidence. Thus I would state that the theory of causation is valid. If you think otherwise regarding the second premise then change the wording of my consequent to "it is highly probable". At the very least, you cannot prove the theory of causation not to be the best among alternate theories.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its still has a validity. Your argument is:

Most thing have property P
Nothing has been proved not to have property P
Therefore we can assume everything has property P

Technically its valid in that you can assume anything has property P if you like, but assuming by 'can' you mean something stronger like 'we can't be wrong to' then its invalid.

It may be that the validity of your argument depends on what you mean by 'can' so can you clear that up.

chez

BluffTHIS!
09-26-2005, 12:04 PM
That's why I said you could change the wording of the conclusion to "it is highly probable". But also note my comment that no other alternate theory has any proof of being more viable. In fact they don't even have a shread of proof, whereas there is much empirical evidence for causation and many things in the past whose causation were unexplained at the time were subsequently explained by science, and thus there is little reason to believe otherwise regarding scientific phenomena whose cause cannot at present be determined.

chezlaw
09-26-2005, 02:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
That's why I said you could change the wording of the conclusion to "it is highly probable".

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry can you be more specific. It appears to me that you're saying either:

Most things have property P
Nothing has been proved not to have property P
Therefore most things have property P

which is valid but not very helpful

or

Most things have property P
Nothing has been proved not to have property P
Therefore it is highly probable that all things have property P

which isn't valid.


chez

09-26-2005, 02:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's why I said you could change the wording of the conclusion to "it is highly probable".

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry can you be more specific. It appears to me that you're saying either:

Most things have property P
Nothing has been proved not to have property P
Therefore most things have property P

which is valid but not very helpful

or

Most things have property P
Nothing has been proved not to have property P
Therefore it is highly probable that all things have property P

which isn't valid.


chez

[/ QUOTE ]

No what he's saying is this:

Everything we are familiar with has a cause
The universe must have a cause
God is the cause
Don't ask what caused God, because then my argument will crumble.

Oh, and don't ask about quantum uncertainty, either. As there is no observable "cause" for why a subatomic particle is in one place and not another outside of random chance described by probability. This will also break down the "causation" logic. Of course, you could say that it isn't that there's no cause for this quantum uncertainty, just that we don't understand the cause. But if you dare speak that, then one can say the exact same thing about the origins of the universe, and then this little "God must be the cause" schtick will collapse.

chezlaw
09-26-2005, 02:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
No what he's saying is this:

Everything we are familiar with has a cause
The universe must have a cause
God is the cause


[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't look like what his saying, although it may be something he is trying to prove using what he is saying here.

chez

09-26-2005, 02:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No what he's saying is this:

Everything we are familiar with has a cause
The universe must have a cause
God is the cause


[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't look like what his saying, although it may be something he is trying to prove using what he is saying here.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Take this: "If I define God thusly: "The first cause of of our known universe ""

And add this:

"1) The vast majority of things and processes can be shown to have a cause.
2) Nothing has yet been proved not to have a cause.
3) Therefore, anything that can be observed but at present cannot be attributed to a cause can be assumed to in fact have one."

The latter gives the 1st two of my statements and the former gives the third.

chezlaw
09-26-2005, 03:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No what he's saying is this:

Everything we are familiar with has a cause
The universe must have a cause
God is the cause


[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't look like what his saying, although it may be something he is trying to prove using what he is saying here.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Take this: "If I define God thusly: "The first cause of of our known universe ""

And add this:

"1) The vast majority of things and processes can be shown to have a cause.
2) Nothing has yet been proved not to have a cause.
3) Therefore, anything that can be observed but at present cannot be attributed to a cause can be assumed to in fact have one."

The latter gives the 1st two of my statements and the former gives the third.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't dispute that is his intention. I'm just sticking to the problems I see with the argument he is presenting. Unless it proves to be valid it doesn't matter what follows from it.

Playing it with a straight bat is the best way I can describe it without rambling on. [though I expect many to have no idea what I mean]

Hopefully you get the idea.

chez

09-26-2005, 03:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No what he's saying is this:

Everything we are familiar with has a cause
The universe must have a cause
God is the cause


[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't look like what his saying, although it may be something he is trying to prove using what he is saying here.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Take this: "If I define God thusly: "The first cause of of our known universe ""

And add this:

"1) The vast majority of things and processes can be shown to have a cause.
2) Nothing has yet been proved not to have a cause.
3) Therefore, anything that can be observed but at present cannot be attributed to a cause can be assumed to in fact have one."

The latter gives the 1st two of my statements and the former gives the third.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't dispute that is his intention. I'm just sticking to the problems I see with the argument he is presenting. Unless it proves to be valid it doesn't matter what follows from it.

Playing it with a straight bat is the best way I can describe it without rambling on. [though I expect many to have no idea what I mean]

Hopefully you get the idea.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I get it. But when the poster has already jumped to the conclusion that God is the first cause, by definition, there really is no need to jump through his hoops, but rather go for the jugular of his reasoning.

chezlaw
09-26-2005, 04:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I get it. But when the poster has already jumped to the conclusion that God is the first cause, by definition, there really is no need to jump through his hoops, but rather go for the jugular of his reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I agree, but if someone is prepared to defend their beliefs with logical arguments then it seems reasonable to respond in kind.

I'm also defending Russell from the charge [ QUOTE ]
... so I can fairly suggest that his arguments were in error and thus should not be used in furtherance of such claims by others.

[/ QUOTE ] I trust that if bluffTHIS! cannot demonstrate these errors then he will withdraw this claim or at least wont repeat it.


chez

BluffTHIS!
09-27-2005, 02:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Most things have property P
Nothing has been proved not to have property P
Therefore it is highly probable that all things have property P

which isn't valid.


[/ QUOTE ]

And why would this not be a logically valid statistical inference? Surely you don't claim the sample size is too small.

And regarding kid's comments:

[ QUOTE ]
No what he's saying is this:

Everything we are familiar with has a cause
The universe must have a cause
God is the cause
Don't ask what caused God, because then my argument will crumble.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't crumble at all and you can't logically prove that it does from my stated arguement which included a First Cause which has no cause. "God" is the name for the First Cause, to which all other causes lead back. And like I said, this is good enough for Stephen Hawking to use the term "God" for. This does not of course mean that my particular views regarding a personal god are true, and Hawking doesn't himself believe in one. Why don't you write him and tell him what a dope he is?

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and don't ask about quantum uncertainty, either. As there is no observable "cause" for why a subatomic particle is in one place and not another outside of random chance described by probability. This will also break down the "causation" logic. Of course, you could say that it isn't that there's no cause for this quantum uncertainty, just that we don't understand the cause. But if you dare speak that, then one can say the exact same thing about the origins of the universe, and then this little "God must be the cause" schtick will collapse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since everything other than the First Cause can be shown to have a cause, then it is reasonable to infer that those apparently uncaused actions actually do have a cause but that the current state of our scientific knowledge is insufficient to explain them. This is all the more so because this has clearly been the case for so many other phenomena in the history of science. The effects of radiation being an example. And if you had searched for earlier threads and read my responses as I suggested, you would have seen that I gave a very reasonable and possible explanation for those apparently uncaused actions: quantum entanglement. If you just assume that a phenomena for which we can't explain the cause doesn't have one without proof of same (and there has been no such proof), then that itself is logically fallacious.

09-27-2005, 02:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't crumble at all and you can't logically prove that it does from my stated arguement which included a First Cause which has no cause. "God" is the name for the First Cause, to which all other causes lead back. And like I said, this is good enough for Stephen Hawking to use the term "God" for. This does not of course mean that my particular views regarding a personal god are true, and Hawking doesn't himself believe in one. Why don't you write him and tell him what a dope he is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nearly every reference on this board to "God" has been made in the context of a personal God. If you are simply naming the thing, entity, event that started the universe or multiverse or whatever as "God", then it has no meaning anymore but is just a loose definition for describing the unknown with a nice 3-letter word.

Of course, this still presupposes that the universe MUST have a first cause, which may just be a product of our limited understanding. You get into an infinite loop with your first cause definition and logic. If everything has a cause, and this traces to the first cause "God", then what caused this first causer? In other words, the following two statements are not reconcilable: (1) everything has a cause, and (2) there was a first cause. So, either everything *but* the first cause has a cause, or the first cause construct is not necessary.

So, sorry, but I still think your argument has a hole.

chezlaw
09-27-2005, 03:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Most things have property P
Nothing has been proved not to have property P
Therefore it is highly probable that all things have property P

which isn't valid.


[/ QUOTE ]

And why would this not be a logically valid statistical inference? Surely you don't claim the sample size is too small.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing to do with sample size.

As I in the role of defending Russell can I ask you if your claim that Russell erred is founded on your claim that this is a logically valid argument.

chez

BluffTHIS!
09-27-2005, 03:07 PM
You are the one who is changing my premises to be irreconcilable because you don't like the conclusions that might come from them. "Except for the First Cause" (entity or whatever), prefaced those premises. Your arguement that everything just keeps preceding back through an endless line of causation that has no beginning is clearly not in accord with science which traces everything back to the primordial quantum singularity that was the source of the big bang. My views are scientifically and logically sound while yours are not. Unless of course like I said you maintain Hawking is a dope. If so and you can prove it, you will win lasting fame for yourself.

09-27-2005, 03:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You are the one who is changing my premises to be irreconcilable because you don't like the conclusions that might come from them. "Except for the First Cause" (entity or whatever), prefaced those premises. Your arguement that everything just keeps preceding back through an endless line of causation that has no beginning is clearly not in accord with science which traces everything back to the primordial quantum singularity that was the source of the big bang. My views are scientifically and logically sound while yours are not. Unless of course like I said you maintain Hawking is a dope. If so and you can prove it, you will win lasting fame for yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what I wrote: "So, either everything *but* the first cause has a cause, or the first cause construct is not necessary."

BluffTHIS!
09-27-2005, 03:24 PM
Are you now maintaining there is a First Cause of the universe regardless of what you call it?

09-27-2005, 03:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Are you now maintaining there is a First Cause of the universe regardless of what you call it?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

I am maintaining that you can't say "There is a cause for everything" and say "God is defined as the first cause" unless you restate your first sentence as "There is a cause for everything except the first cause." But once you say that, then the logic of everything having a cause is no longer valid, as you are admitting that it isn't valid for the first cause. In other words, you can't use "everything has a cause" as a means of arriving at a first cause, you can only use your definition of a first cause which is above your "everything has a cause" logic. Thus, you made a logical statement, then assumed it doesn't apply for one entity, but then made the conclusion that it must apply to every other entity.

BluffTHIS!
09-27-2005, 03:39 PM
Dude, you need to read an introductory text on logic. And you need to get a better grasp on science. I can take as a premise anything I want to if it cannot be proven to be false, which you can't do. And science shows that everything in the universe traces back to one thing. So what was the cause of that thing?

And don't beg the question. Is Stephen Hawking a dope?

Aytumious
09-27-2005, 03:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Dude, you need to read an introductory text on logic. And you need to get a better grasp on science. I can take as a premise anything I want to if it cannot be proven to be false, which you can't do. And science shows that everything in the universe traces back to one thing. So what was the cause of that thing?

And don't beg the question. Is Stephen Hawking a dope?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's amazing you fail to see the flaw in your argument.

asofel
10-09-2005, 03:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dude, you need to read an introductory text on logic. And you need to get a better grasp on science. I can take as a premise anything I want to if it cannot be proven to be false, which you can't do. And science shows that everything in the universe traces back to one thing. So what was the cause of that thing?

And don't beg the question. Is Stephen Hawking a dope?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's amazing you fail to see the flaw in your argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

10-10-2005, 02:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If I define God thusly: "The first cause of of our known universe which itself is self-sustaining and without cause and thus has always existed", then such a definition is not rebutted by Russel's above quote.


[/ QUOTE ]

You've missed half the argument. It is either true that either everything has a cause, or there is something without a cause. In the case where everything has a cause, God must a cause. In the other case:

[ QUOTE ]
If there can be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the world as God, so that there cannot be any validity in that argument. . . . There is no reason why the world could not have come into being without a cause

[/ QUOTE ]

You may try to make the definition, "[God is t]he first cause of of [sic] our known universe," but in the case where there is something without cause, this does not gaurantee the existence of God. Thus the fallacy.