Abraham and a morality poll

[DougShrapnel]

From faith based ethic perspective shouldn’t Abraham’s correct response to God when he said, -Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah, and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.-, I will not kill my son, not because I lack faith in you God but it is because I have faith in you. You who commanded “Thou shall not kill.”?

It is not that I wish to debate the rightness of God, nor to debate the power of faith. But I wish to discuss the ethical exceptions to the immorality of murder.

Some have often argued that without God and His punishment there is no reason to not to commit murder. This argument is not one of reason, as much the argument, without God man can understand nothing, is not of reason. There is no need to appeal to higher being. I would argue that man can know the correctness of his actions by reason and his understanding of the world. But since many believe it I will include it in the poll.

Self defense – It appears that murder in the act of self defense is accepted as moral by society. If we are to say that murder is ok in self defense, then we are stating that not only is the self defense murder moral, but so is the murder of the attacker. What we have here is two party’s agreeing to battle then neither one can be said to be immoral. The agreement is only concessionary but it does exist. It is of this consequence that I would argue against the morality of murder in self defense. It is only acts of self defense that indirectly murder that are moral. Acts of self defense should be limited to non murderous objectives.

Times of war – This both extends upon and exceeds the self defense argument.

The execution of Justice – Including but not limited to capital punishment.

Participant agreement (e.g. driving a car) – This is better described as when people knowingly participate in an activity that will lead to the death of some of its practitioners. Perhaps the Amish are correct in this regard.

Ending of suffering - This includes euthenasia, as well as some arguements for the death penalty.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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From faith based ethic perspective shouldn’t Abraham’s correct response to God when he said, -Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah, and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.-, I will not kill my son, not because I lack faith in you God but it is because I have faith in you. You who commanded “Thou shall not kill.”?


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Sorry my friend, "thou shalt not kill" is given to Moses after he frees the children of Israel from the clutches of Pharoah. (Fast forward a few generations)

[DougShrapnel]

Wait are you saying abraham wasn't omniscient. I'll have to double check that.

[craig r]

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Ah, Abraham, Moses, then Jesus. I'll try to be more correct next time.

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No wonder nobody thinks I am serious when I tell them that I don't believe Moses is the Son of God.

craig

[sexdrugsmoney]

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Wait are you saying abraham wasn't omniscient. I'll have to double check that.

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Abraham was human, and humans are definately not omniscient.

[DougShrapnel]

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Wait are you saying abraham wasn't omniscient. I'll have to double check that.

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Abraham was human, and humans are definately not omniscient.

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My response was only meant for comedic value. I was embaressed by my oversight.

[chezlaw]

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I will not kill my son, not because I lack faith in you God but it is because I have faith in you. You who commanded “Thou shall not kill.”?

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No need to worry about Abraham. Just change it to:

... I have faith in you. You who made me to know that 'It is wrong to kill my son'

[Edit: I think I may mean ' no need to worry about moses /images/graemlins/blush.gif]

chez

[DougShrapnel]

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Ah, Abraham, Moses, then Jesus. I'll try to be more correct next time.

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No wonder nobody thinks I am serious when I tell them that I don't believe Moses is the Son of God.

craig

[/ QUOTE ] When will people learn?

[DougShrapnel]

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I will not kill my son, not because I lack faith in you God but it is because I have faith in you. You who commanded “Thou shall not kill.”?

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No need to worry about Abraham. Just change it to:

... I have faith in you. You who made me to know that 'It is wrong to kill my son'

chez

[/ QUOTE ] Thanks, It's to late to edit.

[Jim T]

"If we are to say that murder is ok in self defense, then we are stating that not only is the self defense murder moral, but so is the murder of the attacker. "

Killing someone in self-defense is not murder.

With limited exceptions, killing an enemy soldier in time of war is not murder either.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
"If we are to say that murder is ok in self defense, then we are stating that not only is the self defense murder moral, but so is the murder of the attacker. "

Killing someone in self-defense is not murder.

With limited exceptions, killing an enemy soldier in time of war is not murder either.

[/ QUOTE ] I was not using the lawfulness of killing when I created the pole. Please change the post however you see fit, so that the questions are regarding the moralness of killing a person.

[jester710]

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Please change the post however you see fit, so that the questions are regarding the moralness of killing a person.

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So I'm too assume that when you ask if we believe murder is ok to end suffering that the victim is complicit in the act? Because I'm ok with euthenasia at a patient's request, but not if it's up to the doctor to decide who's suffering too much to live.

[DougShrapnel]

It is clearly at the patients request either in person or written in the case of life support.

[Eidal]

Interjection with biblical interpretation:

The story of Abraham and Isaac can be interpreted many different ways, but fundamentally it is a test. A shallow interpretation sees this as God testing Abraham's obedience, however, I think the author was trying to paint a different picture.

I believe that the command to Abraham to sacrifice his son is not God testing Abraham, but allowing Abraham the opportunity to test God. Keep in mind, at the time, this God was the new guy on the block and so far hadn't done much to describe his character to his followers. Demanding a blood sacrifice but then cancelling it went gone a long way in showing Abraham who this new Jehovah god really is and what he stands for. Furthermore, I can't think of a more elegant way for a new upstart deity to gather faith than this.

FYI, I've been a lifelong atheist and have always used this story in debates with Christian friends as an example of God's cruelty until I stumbled upon this interpretation, and I rather like it.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
Interjection with biblical interpretation:

The story of Abraham and Isaac can be interpreted many different ways, but fundamentally it is a test. A shallow interpretation sees this as God testing Abraham's obedience, however, I think the author was trying to paint a different picture.

I believe that the command to Abraham to sacrifice his son is not God testing Abraham, but allowing Abraham the opportunity to test God. Keep in mind, at the time, this God was the new guy on the block and so far hadn't done much to describe his character to his followers. Demanding a blood sacrifice but then canceling it went gone a long way in showing Abraham who this new Jehovah god really is and what he stands for. Furthermore, I can't think of a more elegant way for a new upstart deity to gather faith than this.

FYI, I've been a lifelong atheist and have always used this story in debates with Christian friends as an example of God's cruelty until I stumbled upon this interpretation, and I rather like it.

[/ QUOTE ] Interesting side note, but No other picture is painted by the church except that of a test of faith.

However one story that I heard was that one day Ishmael was bragging to Isaac about having to be circumcised when he was thirteen. Isaac said, "That’s not so much, if God told father that he was to kill me for an offering, I'd gladly go."

God overhearing this decided both to test Isaac’s resolve and Abraham’s faith. It shows gods capricious nature. In order to really test Abraham and Isaac, God let Abraham kill Isaac, It was only after God resurrected Isaac did God stop Abraham from trying to kill him again. Why test just one persons faith, when you can ignore the laws of the life and death and test two?


How'd you vote and why?

What? So far the last question is 100% no. Has anyone religious voted yet? I thought that this was where the religious people have been saying yes.

[DougShrapnel]

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What? So far the last question is 100% no. Has anyone religious voted yet? I thought that this was where the religious people have been saying yes.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah what is going on with that.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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However one story that I heard was that one day Ishmael was bragging to Isaac about having to be circumcised when he was thirteen. Isaac said, "That’s not so much, if God told father that he was to kill me for an offering, I'd gladly go."

God overhearing this decided both to test Isaac’s resolve and Abraham’s faith. It shows gods capricious nature. In order to really test Abraham and Isaac, God let Abraham kill Isaac, It was only after God resurrected Isaac did God stop Abraham from trying to kill him again. Why test just one persons faith, when you can ignore the laws of the life and death and test two?

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This is not in Genesis, where does this story come from?

Cheers,
SDM

[DougShrapnel]

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However one story that I heard was that one day Ishmael was bragging to Isaac about having to be circumcised when he was thirteen. Isaac said, "That’s not so much, if God told father that he was to kill me for an offering, I'd gladly go."

God overhearing this decided both to test Isaac’s resolve and Abraham’s faith. It shows gods capricious nature. In order to really test Abraham and Isaac, God let Abraham kill Isaac, It was only after God resurrected Isaac did God stop Abraham from trying to kill him again. Why test just one persons faith, when you can ignore the laws of the life and death and test two?

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This is not in Genesis, where does this story come from?

Cheers,
SDM

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SDM, I don't know where it comes from, and I wish I knew which version is more accurate. But it does make the story more interesting.

[DougShrapnel]

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However one story that I heard was that one day Ishmael was bragging to Isaac about having to be circumcised when he was thirteen. Isaac said, "That’s not so much, if God told father that he was to kill me for an offering, I'd gladly go."

God overhearing this decided both to test Isaac’s resolve and Abraham’s faith. It shows gods capricious nature. In order to really test Abraham and Isaac, God let Abraham kill Isaac, It was only after God resurrected Isaac did God stop Abraham from trying to kill him again. Why test just one persons faith, when you can ignore the laws of the life and death and test two?

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This is not in Genesis, where does this story come from?

Cheers,
SDM

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Ok after some googling I found this.
http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p244.html

[sexdrugsmoney]

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However one story that I heard was that one day Ishmael was bragging to Isaac about having to be circumcised when he was thirteen. Isaac said, "That’s not so much, if God told father that he was to kill me for an offering, I'd gladly go."

God overhearing this decided both to test Isaac’s resolve and Abraham’s faith. It shows gods capricious nature. In order to really test Abraham and Isaac, God let Abraham kill Isaac, It was only after God resurrected Isaac did God stop Abraham from trying to kill him again. Why test just one persons faith, when you can ignore the laws of the life and death and test two?

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This is not in Genesis, where does this story come from?

Cheers,
SDM

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Ok after some googling I found this.
http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p244.html

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I couldn't see that story you told in there?

Cheers,
SDM

[DougShrapnel]

Does this help "Ishmael said to Isaac, “I am greater than you in the fulfillment of the precepts, for you were circumcised at the age of eight days when you could not protest, whereas I was circumcised at the age of thirteen years when I could have protested” (Sanhedrin 89b)."

eidt to add: Ok finally

R. Levi said [in explanation of 'after these words']; After Ishmael's words to Isaac. Ishmael said to Isaac: 'I am more virtuous26 than thee in good deeds, for thou wast circumcised at eight days, [and so couldst not prevent it], but I at thirteen years'. 'On account of one limb wouldst thou incense me!' he replied: 'Were the Holy One, blessed be He, to say unto me, Sacrifice thyself before Me, I would obey', Straightway, God did tempt Abraham.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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Does this help "Ishmael said to Isaac, “I am greater than you in the fulfillment of the precepts, for you were circumcised at the age of eight days when you could not protest, whereas I was circumcised at the age of thirteen years when I could have protested” (Sanhedrin 89b)."

eidt to add: Ok finally

R. Levi said [in explanation of 'after these words']; After Ishmael's words to Isaac. Ishmael said to Isaac: 'I am more virtuous26 than thee in good deeds, for thou wast circumcised at eight days, [and so couldst not prevent it], but I at thirteen years'. 'On account of one limb wouldst thou incense me!' he replied: 'Were the Holy One, blessed be He, to say unto me, Sacrifice thyself before Me, I would obey', Straightway, God did tempt Abraham.

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Oh ok, this is from the Babylonian Talmud.

Cheers,
SDM

[DougShrapnel]

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Does this help "Ishmael said to Isaac, “I am greater than you in the fulfillment of the precepts, for you were circumcised at the age of eight days when you could not protest, whereas I was circumcised at the age of thirteen years when I could have protested” (Sanhedrin 89b)."

eidt to add: Ok finally

R. Levi said [in explanation of 'after these words']; After Ishmael's words to Isaac. Ishmael said to Isaac: 'I am more virtuous26 than thee in good deeds, for thou wast circumcised at eight days, [and so couldst not prevent it], but I at thirteen years'. 'On account of one limb wouldst thou incense me!' he replied: 'Were the Holy One, blessed be He, to say unto me, Sacrifice thyself before Me, I would obey', Straightway, God did tempt Abraham.

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Oh ok, this is from the Babylonian Talmud.

Cheers,
SDM

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Oh yee of little faith.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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Does this help "Ishmael said to Isaac, “I am greater than you in the fulfillment of the precepts, for you were circumcised at the age of eight days when you could not protest, whereas I was circumcised at the age of thirteen years when I could have protested” (Sanhedrin 89b)."

eidt to add: Ok finally

R. Levi said [in explanation of 'after these words']; After Ishmael's words to Isaac. Ishmael said to Isaac: 'I am more virtuous26 than thee in good deeds, for thou wast circumcised at eight days, [and so couldst not prevent it], but I at thirteen years'. 'On account of one limb wouldst thou incense me!' he replied: 'Were the Holy One, blessed be He, to say unto me, Sacrifice thyself before Me, I would obey', Straightway, God did tempt Abraham.

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Oh ok, this is from the Babylonian Talmud.

Cheers,
SDM

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Oh yee of little faith.

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I knew you weren't making it up, just a plethora of apocryphal and pseudephigraphical books that have claimed to be 'inspired' and 'truth', so sources matter. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Cheers,
SDM