OT: Thoughts and questions about heads up play with small blinds.

[FieryJustice]

First off, this should be in the hu forum, but I dont want to put it there. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Well, my hour long hu match with a guy at the end of a mtt got mt thinking about optimal hu strategy, as what he was doing really gave me a hard time. Basically, what the guy would do is call me down any time he had any piece of the flop. The guy wouldnt bet that often even when he had a hand like top pair. So, the guy was a typical calling station fish. It sounds like an ideal situation, but when they hold over you every time I flop some pair and try to value bet it, it turns into a nightmare.

In this specific tourney, there was about 150k chips in play with 750/1500 blinds when we got heads up. I was fairly content with just limping in every hand, since he was never raising from either the sb or the bb AND he never called my raises. I guess this is my first question. Against someone who plays preflop like this guy, should I be raising with random hands, and if so, what should I do with my huge hands?

Ok...On the flop, when the match first started, he would usually check, I would bet 2/3 of the pot and he would fold. This lasted for about 8 hands then I noticed he started calling me a lot more, around 90% of the time. So, I started checking the flop and betting the turn, which worked for a little while until he started calling me down with any piece of the flop all the way to the river with K high and sometimes worse. This is normally great, but he was folding over me every time I had an ok hand. When I started the hu match, I had about 120k chips to his 30k chips and he worked me down to me having 60k to his 90k by just calling every time i bet. I finally figured out he could fold if I made bets on different streets every hand and this got us about even in chips.

At this point, he started pushing for 25bbs from the sb. This was after about an hour of play, so I thought I might have finally got him to break down. Here is the last hand...I have some questions about it.

***** Hand History for Game 2766589530 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny:16018785 Level:15 Blinds (1500/3000) - Saturday, September 24, 09:14:45 EDT 2005
Table $1000 Daily Guaranteed(465533) Table #1 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 5: FieryJustice ( $72152 )
Seat 6: GdCrdsNSmTeq ( $79348 )
Trny:16018785 Level:15
Blinds (1500/3000)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to FieryJustice [ 3s 3h ]
GdCrdsNSmTeq calls [1500].
FieryJustice checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, Ac, Ad ]
FieryJustice checks.
GdCrdsNSmTeq checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]
FieryJustice bets [3000].
GdCrdsNSmTeq raises [6000].
FieryJustice raises [12000].
GdCrdsNSmTeq calls [9000].
** Dealing River ** [ 3c ]
FieryJustice is all-In [54152]
GdCrdsNSmTeq calls [54152].
FieryJustice shows [ 3s, 3h ] four of a kind, threes.
GdCrdsNSmTeq shows [ 2c, Jc ] two pairs, aces and jacks.
FieryJustice wins 144304 chips from the main pot with four of a kind, threes.
Game #2766592356 starts.


His raise on the turn made me think he had an A. So, was the push on the river correct of me, assuming he will onle call with an A? I didnt think he would call a push with a J, but he obviously did. Perhaps he was just ready to get the hand over with.

Ok...here is my main question. What is the default "optimal" heads up strategy? It seems to me that if this guy just bet more, I would have been totally stumped because he would be taking some pots away from me yet I wouldnt be able to take any away from him, as he was calling me down. Also, it is obvious this guy is overplaying his hands. I was quite sure if I could ever hit a strong hand, like a boat or a flush, I would take his stack just because he couldnt fold. So, it seems to me that a fairly good strategy would just to be a calling station fish that doesnt pay people off when it is obvious you are beat. Maybe I am just stupid...i was just amazed by how this guy calling every continuation bet I made really really killed my game.

[FieryJustice]

no one wants to talk about hu play? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[kitaristi0]

I don't think there is such a thing as "default optimal HU play". It's all completely opponent dependent. Especially when the blinds are low, you have plenty of time to find out his style and then adjust your game to best match his.

On a sidenote, I find that people in this forum don't answer HU threads. Don't know why.

[helpmeout]

Why are you letting him limp when you have 33?

Against a passive player you let him make the mistake of just calling with good hands.

You have to put in a good raise with any hand that is a considerable favourite over a random hand. Any Ace and any pair is a good start.

When you have cheese then you can just see a cheap flop and fold unimproved. If he lets you limp from SB and never raises then limp with all but the worst hands.

If he starts not letting you limp from SB then you fold your trash and just auto raise with anything you are going to play.

With huge hands I tend to make standard raises that I'd make with good but not great HU hands like QT, stuff thats a favourite but nothing good enough that I'd wanna go all in for.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, it is obvious this guy is overplaying his hands. I was quite sure if I could ever hit a strong hand, like a boat or a flush, I would take his stack just because he couldnt fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

He wanted to play more, not bigger pots. If he raised pf, he was getting called. If he c-bet, he was getting called by a ton of hands, which put him in an awkward spot (Having a large pot where you have no idea how strong your hand is).

I watched the HU and it was obvious that it would just be a matter of waiting him out.

[helpmeout]

If he is getting called preflop then he isnt raising enough.

Also if the guy is overplaying his hands then just bet more postflop when you hit a good pair.

I was a bit baffled by your play for a while but in the end I was very impressed.

I think the way you played it, you were a huuuuge favorite to win. The large chance you can get his stack the first time you get a huge hand makes me like playing a lot of very tiny pots. It's why you were able to survive the ~40 minute period where you had the worst hand overwhelmingly often. I feel like the way you played, you win most of the time even when the deck hits him really hard, while playing more aggressively increases the chance you win when YOU get the cards only by a small amount and makes it much harder for you to win if he gets a ton of cards.

What do you think of raising preflop with only your very worst hands? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[FieryJustice]

I am usually content taking a lot, or every, flop. Also, I had no desire to play a big pot with this guy because I felt as if I could beat him down with tiny bets over a long period of time until he gets pissed and starts pushing. Also, my preflop raises wernt realy getting called here, the few I made early in the match. Because of this, I was forced to limp with my good hands or risk getting no action at all. I was trying to get his stack in one huge hand, if possible, without risking much of my stack at all. FWIW, I the one forum $11 hu tourney on stars I played, I played just like this for 3 rounds until I ran into a guy that raised a lot and forced me to play only a few big pots instead of a million tiny ones. I think once you start raising a lot preflop, it becomes a lot more like a crap shoot and that isnt what I am trying to get out of a game when I think I can control the opponet. Also, I am not against raising like crazy against people who are "good" enough to fold when they think they are beat. I just think the better play against most people is to win the tourney one small pot at a time until they finally break.

[lorinda]

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3482745&page=4&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

That is how I play against people who raise or bet too often.

I'm aware that I'm a much lower limit player than you, but it may (or may not) be of help for you to see it from the other side.

My plan is to push him into making bets that are too big by calling his smaller ones. When he starts making bigger bets, I can pick him off.

I'm not a great HU player, but I still think you may find it interesting.

Lori

Well I certainly feel like it was right against that guy, but that is not at all how I play against most guys HU. I think a lot of people will allow you to totally dominate them with very aggressive play. I suppose those same guys could allow you to dominate them as much or more playing a lot of tiny pots, I'll have to try it out to get a feel for it myself.