Foxwoods 5/10 - Hand versus JTG

[Homer]

This is a hand I played against JTG in a 5/10 kill game (this hand was not a kill) at Foxwoods this weekend. I hope I have the details right or at least close to it (I'm not used to having to remember hands since I play online most of the time). I've provided what my thoughts were during the course of the hand, to explain why I took each action.

Preflop

Action - I'm dealt KQo in the SB. It's folded around to JTG on the button, who raises. I three-bet, the BB folds and JTG calls.

Thoughts during the hand - This is an easy three-bet from the SB. KQ is too powerful to fold against what is likely a steal-raise, and I don't want to call and let BB in cheap. Hopefully I'll be able to take it down with a bet on the flop if rags come, or have the best hand if a K or Q comes (will have to play good poker to determine that).

Thoughts in retrospect - I agree.


Flop - 457r

Action - I bet, JTG calls.

Thoughts during the hand - Okay, rags, I bet. Hmmm, he called. His hand is definitely better than a marginal stealing hand. He either has a big pair and is waiting for the turn to raise me or has AK/AQ and is taking one off or calling me down. He knows I don't need a monster to three-bet his possible steal-raise and lead out on the flop when rags come, so I wouldn't be surprised if he just has overcards.

Thoughts in retrospect - I agree.


Turn - 6 (not sure if it completed the rainbow or not)

Action - I check, JTG bets, I checkraise, he calls.

Thoughts during the hand - If I check he will bet with pretty much anything. I'm going to checkraise him and hope that he lays down his (better) overcards. I'm going to checkraise rather than betting out because if I bet out I think he may call me down unimproved with better overcards, such as AK and AQ. By checkraising I can get him to lay these hands down. If he checks behind me then I will get a free card and will either check-fold or check-call the river if I don't improve (because if I bet the river he will call with better overcards).

Thoughts in retrospect - I think that check-folding may have been preferable to check-raising. I still don't like betting out. JTG will call me down with better overcards and will raise me with overpairs. My only chance of winning the hand is by check-raising. The question is whether this is preferable to check-folding.

River - Q (no flush)

Action - I bet, JTG calls.

Thoughts during the hand - He called my turn checkraise, but didn't three-bet. He knows I'm not likely to have a straight and that I most likely have an overpair (unless he can see through my ploy and put me on overcards). He would have three-bet the turn with AA and KK and probably just called with QQ on down. If I check the river he will only bet with QQ and will check it through with JJ and down, but if I bet he will call with the hand(s) he would have bet himself and with additional hands that he wouldn't have bet himself. If he does happen to have QQ, he will raise, in which case I have an easy fold.

Thoughts in retrospect - I agree.


Results - JTG showed KK and took it down.


Questions - How did I play the hand? How did JTG play the hand? How would you have played the hand in my shoes? How would you have played the hand in JTG's shoes?

-- Homer

[JimmyV]

I was going to say that "I would have lost more than you did," but since you bet or check-raised at every opportunity that probably seems nonsensical. I would have lost more than you did because I play with more aggressive players than JTG showed himself to be here. (As JTG is one of the posters I most respect this criticism should be taken in the spirit of perplexity in which it's intended: why would JTG wilt heads-up like this?)

I think you played it perfectly.

I think JTG has an easy turn 3-bet, or alternatively a river raise made slightly harder by the failure to rule out sets or QQ on the turn.

Pretty clearly JTG is not thinking hard enough in this hand about what YOU think he has. (Or perhaps he knows something about your play that I don't know, something that was clearly wrong in this instance.) Like you, I'd expect him to raise on the button with a wide range of hands and he should therefore expect you to be betting for value or semibluffing with a wide range of hands. After the weakness JTG showed on the flop (I HOPE slowplaying), his calls on the turn and river seem to me nearly indefensible.

Raise it up, cowboy-man!

[JTG51]

I was wondering if you'd post this one, Homer. I'll give my thoughts also, and respond to everyone else's responses tonight.

Preflop:

I'd been looking forward to a chance to attack Homer's blinds all day. I think this was my first chance, so I could literally have any hand. Homer knows this, and I know that Homer knows this. I called his 3-bet planning to go to war on the turn unless something out of the ordinary happens on the flop.

Flop:

Pretty routine. I'm sure that flop didn't hit him, except for the very slim chance he flopped a set. I'm not worried about that. I plan to raise any turn card.

Turn:

Homer foiled my plan, so I had to bet, pretty routine. When I got check raised I thought Homer was most likely to have overcards, or a straight with 88. Obviously overcards are much more likely. If I 3-bet overcards are going to fold and I can't make a bet on the river, and a straight is probably going to 4-bet me, so I just called.

River:

I think I made a mistake here. I think the chances that Homer has a straight are slim enough and the chances that the Q hit his overcards are good enough that I should have raised. I'll be interested to hear some other opinions.

[Homer]

Thanks Jimmy. I am certain JTG planned to raise the turn had I bet. After I checkraised the turn perhaps he put me on a set of 6's or 7's, the straight (88) or AA? It is possible that he was simply caught off guard and went into call-down mode, without giving full consideration to what I might have. It is also possible that he was smart enough to know that I could be trying to bluff check-raise him off of overcards on the turn and would fold to a three-bet. So maybe he just called hoping that he could get one more bet out of me on the river.

Anyhoo, it will be interesting to hear his perspective. This hand seems fairly straightforward, but since we both could have a wide range of hands and the board came rags, it makes it a bit more interesting. More playing the player than playing the actual cards in this case (at least from my perspective).

-- Homer

[Homer]

I agree. In my reply to Jimmy I indicated that you may have called the turn knowing that I was drawing thin, hoping to get one more out of me on the river (whereas I would have folded to a three-bet). When the Q comes on the river I agree that you should raise (but only if you are going to fold to a three-bet, which I assume you would) since it improves many of the overcard hands I could have had. I would have folded to the raise, but you still should have made it, I think. By the way, I almost check-called the river but didn't do so for the reasons described in my initial post.

-- Homer

[Nottom]

I always hate getting in situations like this. I really don't see any glaring errors in your play and I think your choice of how to play here is a solid one. I like the turn check-raise even if it did cost you an extra bet, since it very well may have won this hand for you if he were holing AQ instead of KK.

As for his play, I'm a bit torn between it being your standard overly passive poor post flop play, and very good play based on his read of you as a player. I tend to lean toward the later, since if he was your standard poor player he would have probably capped with his cowboys pre-flop 99% of the time. He certainly ended up winning the most possible on this hand since a raise at any point would have most certainly chased you off. The only thing that seems odd is the lack of a raise on the river, but I think given your check-raise on the turn it was best to just call you down.

[Homer]

Any other thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

-- Homer

[WiredPair]

Yeah, I have a thought and that is I have a ways to go as a poker player before I get to yours/JTG's level! I think I'm getting better at putting people on hand's, but my thinking isn't nearly to this level with respect to hand analysis. Sounds like you both played this well given your read on each other.

[Nottom]

Forgot this was against a 2+2er ... I like the way he played it and you can disregard the part about him maybe being bad and passive.

[Zag]

It's interesting to get both perspectives like this. Thanks for the honest reply.

I think I would have done exactly the same with both players' hands. I definitely like the check-raise, and I imagine that JTG at least considered laying down his KK. If it had, in fact, been overcards led by an ace, this probably would have taken it.

I also think that I would have played JTG's KK the same way. While hindsight indicates that a raise on the end would have been profitable, I am sure that I would have been confused enough at this point by Homer's actions that I would just want to call it down. There are a variety of hands he might have with which he is betting for value, and a raise is just going to cost two more BBs.

[Joe Tall]

It's interesting to read this now that I can picture you two sitting there.

Homer's play:

Preflop - perfect play to get him heads up, you know, as I do that JTG could be just sitting there waiting to steal your blind as I got this feeling a number of times when he was the button and I was big blind. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

Flop: Leading out was a good move, but you have to wonder why he's calling, (my question is, pre-flop did he flick his chips out or just place them??, err, sorry, maybe you need to see this from the other side of the table) Anywho, his call here would scare me.

Turn: I think I like your play

JTG - why no re-raise??

River: Have to lead out here.

JTG - why no raise?

[Joe Tall]

Ah, I didn't read your post when I replied to the main post. However, I'm surprised you missed your river raise and didn't trust your instincts. As for the 'flicking of chips', I was only kidding. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

I'm so glad that flush didn't hit w/my Q9s loose call in the BB - Phew!

[JTG51]

I already walked through my thoughts on the hand, I didn't say anything about Homer's play though.

Preflop:

The 3-bet with KQ is pretty routine. As LarryJoe said, I was just waiting for a chance to attack your blind. I could have just about any hand, KQ will be the best hand the vast majority of the time.

Flop:

The bet is routine.

Turn:

I don't really like your check raise. You said you thought I'd bet any hand if you checked to me. If that was true, then I like the check raise. You'd most likely push me off of better overcards. I wouldn't bet that kind of hand though. If I had AK or AQ, I would have checked behind planning on showing down. The only hands that I'd bet then fold on the turn are hands that are drawing very slim against your K high.

The check raise almost has to be a bluff or a straight since I can't imagine you risking giving me a free card with a hand like QQ or JJ. Given the preflop action a bluff seems a lot more likely than a straight, so I can't fold an overpair. That's also why I think calling was better than 3-betting for me.

River:

I suppose a case could be made for checking the river, but I think it was a pretty easy bet. When I jsut called, you rightly assumed you won. For those that weren't there, I thought for quite a while before I called. Homer probably thought I was debating between folding and calling. I was actually thinking about raising. As I said above, I think not rasing was a mistake. Probably not a big one since a player as good as Homer wouldn't call me with many worse hands, but still a mistake.

I think it was a pretty interesting hand with interesting options on just about every street.

[JTG51]

As JTG is one of the posters I most respect this criticism should be taken in the spirit of perplexity in which it's intended: why would JTG wilt heads-up like this?

Thank you, and don't worry. I always appreciate honest criticism.

I think JTG has an easy turn 3-bet...

I strongly disagree. Unless Homer has exactly QQ, JJ, TT, or 99 I think a turn 3-bet is very bad. It will either cause him to fold a hand that's drawing very slim or dead, or get me 4-bet.

...or alternatively a river raise made slightly harder by the failure to rule out sets or QQ on the turn.

I agree that I missed a river raise, I think there is virtually no chance Homer has QQ though. I don't think he would chance giving my possible overcards a free card on the turn. To me, his check raise pretty much ruled out an overpair.

Pretty clearly JTG is not thinking hard enough in this hand about what YOU think he has.

Again, I disagree. I told you a player as good as Homer lost 3.5 big bets post flop heads up with a hand that was drawing almost dead, wouldn't you think I must have done a good job of disguising my hand while still getting maximum value out of it?

After the weakness JTG showed on the flop (I HOPE slowplaying)

Yes, of course. I don't think just calling the 3-bet preflop make a lot of sense unless I'm going to wait till the turn to raise.

I'm really interested to hear your thoughts on my defense. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[JTG51]

As for the 'flicking of chips', I was only kidding.

No you weren't, and that shows how perceptive you are. That is honestly very impressive since we only played together for a couple of hours.

However, I noticed that about myself a long time ago. You just didn't play with me long enough to notice that that is anything but a reliable tell. It may have been once, but it isn't now. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif