Shorthanded Omaha Hi Low?Buzz,chaos,mack,beernutz help!

[Sirens]

Hi guys,
Lately i have been playing alot of shorthanded omaha hi low. Generally i love the action, people play much more different and even looser in many situation. Do you think is more profitable or not? Because of the rake should there be atleast 4-5 players or do u think its profitable if played three handed or headsup. Consider the online rake at paradise. If you think shorthanded is profitable, what do you think are some major differences both in starting hand selection and post flop play.
1) are weak hands generally playable. Example. In full ring 2457 is always mucked preflop , but might became raisable or limpable UTG in a five handed pot.
2) Continuing postflop do u need to be drawing to atleast the nut hand or second nut hand or can you routinly draw to a 23 or A4 with some other form of redraws.
etc..
Anything that you might think of that can help. Please suggest thankyou very much.

-Sirens

[chaos]

When the game gets shorthanded, a few things happen.
Non-nut hands win more often, especially on the high side.
You get quartered for low much less often.

It becomes important to try and manipulate the number of people contesting the pot. If you have a strong one-way hand against 2 opponents, you want to play your hand so as to not drive out the third opponent. Once you are heads up with someone going the opposite way you can't win any more money.

If you have a two way hand and your hand for one direction is weak, it is worth trying to eliminate opponents going that way so that your weak hand may win that half of the pot. If the pot becomes heads up often the winning high hand is one pair or two pairs.

If you have a two way hand that is strong in both directions, your goal will be to keep players in while building a large pot.

These considerations come into play when the game is short handed or the stakes are higher where few people see the flop. In a full, lower-limit game you often have 5-7 layers seeing the flop so you are not going to be able to easily manipulate the size of the field.

For a 4 or 5 handed game I do not vary my starting hand requirements that much. I will add more high only hands and almost any A2xx or A3xx becomes playable in position. I do not have experience playing heads up or 3 handed.

[Phat Mack]

I think chaos's advice is solid, so I'll just add a few comments. First I have to say that I don't play online, so I don't know whether the rakes are beatable shorthanded. If everybody at the table is gambling, shorthanded games can be pretty good, especially PL/NL or games with big bets on the end.

I also have to say that O8 doesn't become shorthanded as fast as hold 'em. A five-handed O8 game with almost everybody seeing the flop doesn't prompt me to loosen my starting hands that much. If I have been playing with the same crew for a period of time and am reading them pretty well, I might loosen up slightly. If the game becomes headsup on the flop, I will loosen up more.

1) are weak hands generally playable. Example. In full ring 2457 is always mucked preflop , but might became raisable or limpable UTG in a five handed pot.

I don't like 2457 that much unless I can see the flop cheaply or free. When it's two or three handed, I want to have a reasonable hand going one way, and something to show down for the other way, or I want a strong hand in one direction where I can pound the pot pretty hard and put the pressure on. In short handed limit games, I don't worry a lot about being quartered, and will start pounding early with a good low hand. Disguising your hand is a lot more important shorthanded. If you are easy to read, you will just end up splitting a lot of pots.

In two or three handed games I'll play middle cards, although I'm loathe to tell others to do so. But a hand like 8765 can make a straight against a set, and still have some low cards to show down if you get caught by a higher straight or your opponent's low gets dinked. Shorthanded, a lot of bad play becomes correct, so it's better to play against a couple of rocks who will sit around and wait for an A2.

2) Continuing postflop do u need to be drawing to atleast the nut hand or second nut hand or can you routinly draw to a 23 or A4 with some other form of redraws.

I don't want to draw to these hands postflop if they are all I have, but combine them with two pair and a good read on my opponent, and an A4 or 23 can give you what you need to build the pot much earlier in the hand.

[Buzz]

Excellend advice, in my humble opinion, from both Chaos and Mack up to this point.

There are some other threads with regard to short handed play in the archives.

Generally you need to play much more aggressively short-handed.

I don't play on-line. My experience in casios is that short handed Omaha-8 play is not generally profitable. There are a couple of reasons for this. First, the rake eats you up, even when floor manager agrees to a reduced rake. (Usually they will). Second, you're usually up against tough opponents, often pros or at least props, who have a whale of a lot of playing experience.

I play short handed every chance I get. But I look at it about the same as if I were paying for a golf lesson with a golf pro.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[DPCondit]

I agree with most of what has been posted so far.

Yes, you have to play more aggressive, and getting a strong read on your opponents becomes more important too. Pairs of Aces and Kings go up in value, and high draws go down, although you can still go for a lot of good low draws especially if you have a shot at the high end.

Shorthanded can be fun, because you get to play faster and more aggressively, which I find enjoyable.

I don't care much for 2457, shorthanded or not. As far as routinely drawing to A4 and 23, I wouldn't want to do that "routinely", but selectively, based on your reads, preferably when you have a reasonable chance of winning high.

Like some of the other posters, I don't play online. If Paradise doesn't lower the rake for fewer players, then I would think the game would be less profitable, unless you have a big edge against these specific opponents, or you are a much better shorthanded player.

Good luck,
Don

[Big Dave D]

Unless you are playing particularily large, then the rake will break you. Because these games online tend to be v v aggresive its often the case that the max rake is taken out, but the pot is split and you dont make any money. THis is hard to beat over time unless you are many many times better than the field.

Gl

Dave

[Macho Grande]

Personally, I don't care for Hi/Lo poker with less than six players. Wouldn't go near a split pot game less than five. As has been said, the rake tears you up. That coupled with the splits and you're at a distinct disadvantage.