10 x BB rule and AK

Although the 10 X bb rule is not an absolute rule for any situation it's generally accepted that pushing with a raise when you have less than 10 BB is usually correct.

What about AK though? I find myself pushing with up to 15 BB because I want that hand all in. Am I losing EV by doing this, or is this the best way to play it?

I also find myself pushing a stack of 1000 with AK on the 25-50 blind levels when there are a couple of limpers? Is this an amateur move that is less effective than an alternative?

[pergesu]

Depends on how many limpers. If there are like three or four limpers, so you're looking at a pot of 225-275, then pushing is cool. Bones calls it pwning limpers, and it's fun. It's like a PVS but you don't mind being called at all.

With just one or two limpers though I'd pop it normally, 200-300.

Also I don't really like open pushing for 15 BB. Too likely that when you get called, you're behind, maybe even big time (though it depends on the stack..when you get called by a big stack you're in trouble). Just raise it normally and play from there. Usually you pick up the blinds, and a raise lets you get away from your hand if someone comes over the top. Plus you get to play some postflop, which is fun fun FUN

[applejuicekid]

I like this post and am interested what others have to say. I know I do this a lot, and at times it feels silly. I also push limpers at level 3 with AK, but I'll do this with KK and QQ as well. I can't think of anything wrong with it, but for some reason it does seem a little "amateurish."

[applejuicekid]

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and a raise lets you get away from your hand if someone comes over the top

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I disagree. Say you have 1300 chips and the blinds are 50/100. You raise to 300 and then someone puts you all in. Are you folding??????

I can't think of a scenerio that's not on the bubble where I'm folding AK preflop after invest a quarter of my stack.

[Michael C.]

I wouldn't push AK at 15X the bb as a rule, although there are of course exceptions, especially when you are just dominating the table and might get called with a lower ace. For one thing, it's a pretty good hand, so what's wrong with letting someone into the hand for 3 or 4x the bb, especially when you have position? I don't really mind dropping here if I miss the flop, since I'd still have fe and wouldn't be desperate even after the hand. Also, since you're the raiser, on a lot of flops you can steal it on a continuation bet anyway, and win your bet instead of just the ante. Sometimes this will come back and bite you, but overall I prefer this line to being a pushpot when your chip position is that decent.

[Michael C.]

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I disagree. Say you have 1300 chips and the blinds are 50/100. You raise to 300 and then someone puts you all in. Are you folding??????

[/ QUOTE ] I see your point here, and in this particular situation, of course you aren't folding. But one other point to take into consideration is what hands will call you for 300 that wouldn't call you for 1300? Often it's the dominated aces like AQ and AJ. And don't you want them in the hand with you? If it's a high pp and he pushes back at you, you probably will get all your chips in in any case. If it's a low or medium pp, he might drop to a contiuation bet, depending on his stack. And on some flops that clearly miss you and likely hit your opponent, you can fold and still have 1000 left. To me pushing or making a smaller raise would depend a lot on my position, if anyone has limped already (which would make me much more likely to push), and the stack sizes of the players to my left.

[Paragon]

Pushing with AK is good because it maximizes the value you get when up against AQ/AJ. Conversely, notice how few people would recommend pushing AQ or AJ for greater than 10 bb's pre flop except in special cases. Also, at a 10 handed table if you push AK utg you'll only run into AA/KK roughly 4.5% of the time. Most of the time people fold before you act and the table has less people.

If you take a flop with AK against AQ/AJ, you'll both share TP aces only as often as you would normally flop a set with a pocket pair... that is, not often. You can still win chips in other ways on different flops of course, but you'll also fold the best hand out of position a significant number of times is my guess.

Every hand I am dealt AK I try to find some way to get allin pre flop with tons of dead money in the middle. This is at the $55 level where people still make very loose calls.

I think I know why it seems amateurish to you. You really shouldn't think about what your M is for AK. It's how much that's in the pot already, because one of the greatest strengths of AK is the large chance that people will fold. AK is nearly guaranteed to be a coin flip or better if called anyways. HOWEVER, a good player would not want to risk taking a coin flip early to win so little. I think 15x BB (again, probably not a good idea to think this way) is a little too early to open push with no money in the center, but if there's several limpers then I would probably do it.

I've been thinking about this somewhat and I think the main thing to consider here is position if you aren't dealing with many limpers. If I'm on or close to the button raising it up a normal amount seems fine at any limit against 2-3 players. When the bb is 50 (for an 800 starting stack tourney) I would certainly push from any position if there are 3-4 limpers in the hand already, but I would also push from any early or middle position if there is just one limper before me.

Don't confuse this play for settling for a coinflip early on because it's not that simple.

1. Your fold equity is huge because I don't see people calling this even half the time
2. You will dominate hands of donks who call with ace x
3. Getting a chip lead early is underestimated in stt. With double the chips of many other players, people will play timidly at you.
4. If you do take the risk of busting out early (with a great preflop hand) in a tourney, you will be able to play more games per hour and your hourly rate longterm will increase somewhat.

Alright that's all I have for now. I probably overlooked some aspects of this so please respond and critique.

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one of the greatest strengths of AK is the large chance that people will fold.

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How is that a strength of any particular holding?

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AK is nearly guaranteed to be a coin flip or better if called anyways.

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I think "nearly guaranteed" is way too strong

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How is that a strength of any particular holding?


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Sorry that was unclear. This would be true for any cards you push with, AK just has a better chance of holding up. Fold equity is one of the reasons to push.

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I think "nearly guaranteed" is way too strong

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how so? the other person would have to AA or KK to make this true. Chances of an opponent having either is a combined .5%. I'd say you get called more often by aces you dominate than by these holdings combined. Nearly guaranteed is fine enough wording for me. AK wins 1/3 of the time against KK anyway

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how so? the other person would have to AA or KK to make this true.

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Misread the quoted part, sorry. I didn't see "or better" and wondered why you thought AQ- were never calling