($27) 88 Blinds Gap Concept?

[durron597]

SB was relatively (but not ridiculously) tight for a big stack.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t4305)
Hero (t2155)
UTG (t3085)
Button (t3955)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t800</font>, Hero ???

[Isura]

Folding seems best.

[Sabrazack]

Unless he has done this a few times already im folding here, otherwise im pushing it.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding seems best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come on, you can do better than that. Not that you're wrong necessarily, but you can definitely do better than that.

Also think about what range SB should be raising with if I fold 88 here.

[DyessMan89]

Tight or not tight, in this situation I think even some of the most tighest players would take a stab at your blinds. You're going to need to double up sooner or later, why not now?

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
You're going to need to double up sooner or later, why not now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because having to face an all-in call with 88 with 10bb on the bubble is usually bad.

Edit: FWIW, with this hand in this spot, I prefer a stop-n-go to a push if I'm going to play this hand.

[jwesty5]

[ QUOTE ]

Edit: FWIW, with this hand in this spot, I prefer a stop-n-go to a push if I'm going to play this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your plan if the SB stabs at this pot after the flop then??

[ilya]

I would fold; I don't think he's folding to a push, and I think the size of the raise indicates a decent hand more than a weak one coming from a tight player. I think you're about even money against his range &amp; that's not quite enough. I think if he showed me A9o I might gamble though.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Edit: FWIW, with this hand in this spot, I prefer a stop-n-go to a push if I'm going to play this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your plan if the SB stabs at this pot after the flop then??

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a donk. I misread the post, I thought the button was raising. So that takes the SNG out.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if he showed me A9o I might gamble though.


[/ QUOTE ]

If he showed you A9o and said he was going to call a push, you should definitely fold.

Hmmmm. My first reaction is that this is an easy push. You still have some fold equity, and I see many potential villain hands that you are 3-1 or better against (Ax, lower PP, suited kings or queens). Otherwise you're probably racing.

Thinking about it a bit more, the villain's raise to 800 seems to say "I'm playing this pot", but that could be a misinterpretation. He also might be saying this w/ A7s or 66. A read would obviously help. I'm still inclined to push though.

[kong98]

I usually push this, but looking at it, I think its a mistake. If SB has been relatively tight, then against

99+,A9s+,KJs+,QJs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo

You're a 45% dog.

I assume you've been pushing a fair bit already, so any hand he's raising you with, he's likely to call your push with.

[Roland32]

Easy push, your ahead here with fold equity. If he calls and your in a coin flip thats not the worst thing in the world.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think if he showed me A9o I might gamble though.


[/ QUOTE ]

If he showed you A9o and said he was going to call a push, you should definitely fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I know it's somewhat -$EV however winning makes me big chip leader on the bubble. Depending on the other players, gambling might be worth it I think.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually push this, but looking at it, I think its a mistake. If SB has been relatively tight, then against

99+,A9s+,KJs+,QJs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo

You're a 45% dog.

I assume you've been pushing a fair bit already, so any hand he's raising you with, he's likely to call your push with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been fairly tight recently. That seams like a reasonable range, except probably a little narrow. Probably closer to 66+, A7s+, A9o+, KTs+, KJo+, QJs/o. So my chip equity is slightly better than what you think.

[curtains]

Youd need a bazooka to make me fold 88 here.

[KingDan]

Couldn't someone do this with any pair HU?

Even tight people will raise with a lot as the big stack from the small blind. I would push every time.

If he pushed here, it's close but I would fold here because you have more skill at the bubble compared to your opponents that you can outplay them in future situations.

Given that he has raised 4xBB, he doesn't seem trying to intice you into the pot either and just wants to steal your blind. Even with a 10-20% chance that he folds here, giving you 1000 chips makes the risk of him calling you worthwhile. I push.

[KingDan]

If he pushed this is a super easy call.
It is less likely he has AA/KK because donks try to get fancy with these hands.


You're gonna bet getting 2-1 here a lot of the time and no player is good enough to pass that here.

[Fatdogs12]

Just seems he is wanting a call with this 800 chip bet. Still at 10x the bb. Just seems tricky... of course maybe that is his intent.

I agree with the other guy though, I call a push.

[pooh74]

I love how many "fold" responses there are. Fact is, maybe if i had 3800 instead of 2100, I could fold or not push all in...etc.. but as 4th stack, you should be looking to get in with the best of it. As far as ICM and figuring out how good you are against his range, it isnt helpful BC he has qq-aa about never here, and in fact the 4bb raise makes me think you could throw 22-77 in there as well. I mean lets be realistic, most monster hands a bigstack is going to be looking for action with...4BB raise is about the weakest raise possible here. If youre beat, so be it.

pooooooo(s)h

[ QUOTE ]
I usually push this, but looking at it, I think its a mistake. If SB has been relatively tight, then against

99+,A9s+,KJs+,QJs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo

You're a 45% dog.

I assume you've been pushing a fair bit already, so any hand he's raising you with, he's likely to call your push with.

[/ QUOTE ]

This range seems chosen intentionally.

[kong98]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually push this, but looking at it, I think its a mistake. If SB has been relatively tight, then against

99+,A9s+,KJs+,QJs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo

You're a 45% dog.

I assume you've been pushing a fair bit already, so any hand he's raising you with, he's likely to call your push with.

[/ QUOTE ]

This range seems chosen intentionally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes... it was chosen intentionally to represent the hands I thought a tight player would raise with. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Against Durron's range posted above (66+,A7s+,KTs+,QJs,A9o+,KJo+,QJo), hero is 49.5%.

I punched the numbers into eastbay's sitngo-analyzer. My assumption is that any hand SB is raising with, he is calling a push with, so I set it as if SB was open-pushing. It says that hero can only call with JJ+,AK.

I don't think pushing is terrible, but I think folding is a better choice. Hero isn't completely desperate yet, so he can wait for a better open-push opportunity. This will also give his opponents a chance to bust each other out. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
My assumption is that any hand SB is raising with, he is calling a push with

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't a good assumption. Although the majority of the time the raiser will call, 10-20% of the time he will fold, once you factor in 10-20% of the time you are certain to win 1000 chips this is a push here. Thus, you can't use SNGPT alone to analyse this hand. Also I would put him on about 22-QQ,Ax+,K7o+,QTo+,JTs, when you include the lower pairs and discount KK and AA, your equity in this hand goes up a fair bit.

You are coming 4th, if you want to win it is critical that you get yourself into a position to be able to bully the crap out of the other (shorter) stacks by the time the blinds hit 400/200. An extra 1000 chips or a double up would certainly put you in that position even if you face the risk of coming 4th.

[caretaker1]

The button makes this move with a lot of hands, push looks good, should get a fair amount of folds and usually will not be worse than the right end of a coin flip when there is a call.

$.02

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My assumption is that any hand SB is raising with, he is calling a push with

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't a good assumption. Although the majority of the time the raiser will call, 10-20% of the time he will fold, once you factor in 10-20% of the time you are certain to win 1000 chips this is a push here. Thus, you can't use SNGPT alone to analyse this hand. Also I would put him on about 22-QQ,Ax+,K7o+,QTo+,JTs, when you include the lower pairs and discount KK and AA, your equity in this hand goes up a fair bit.

You are coming 4th, if you want to win it is critical that you get yourself into a position to be able to bully the crap out of the other (shorter) stacks by the time the blinds hit 400/200. An extra 1000 chips or a double up would certainly put you in that position even if you face the risk of coming 4th.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, 88 seems to be losing me a lot of money in these blind vs. blind battles these days. This time SB had 99 and I lose. I'm glad the board agrees that my push was good.

[adanthar]

I fold this if the non-standard raise means he's calling a push. When they do that, it's the same hands that they open push early with 15 or 100 BB or whatever, and I don't call 88 against that range, either.

If the raise was to 600 I'd push without hesitation.

[golfcchs]

You really think he is only raising pp higher then 8-8? I bet he is raising any pp.