Religion is ethics for stupid people

[r3vbr]

Stupid people don't understand the concept of value of a human life, morality, etc.

Therefore, if there was no religion, stupid people would rob, murder, etc. as there is no "penalty" involved.

Religion is ethics and morality in a pretty story, dumbed down to the level of the masses so they can comprehend. So the only reason the dumb people don't commit murder is not to go to hell. Going to hell is the main part of religion.

Going to hell is the CORE of christianity. If the paragraph saying "you will go to hell" is erased from the bible, and the pope says on TV "we were wrong about going to hell, there is no hell" then faithfull catholics would sharply drop till it reached zero, and the religion would end instantly.

Therefore, religion is a good lie, as it serves like a crowd control. If there was no christianity or other religion with the hell-threat, then our civilization would break down to disorder, as stupid people would start killing each other.

The law is insuficient to deal with crazy dumb people. We need the religion with the hell penalty. I mean, criminals aren't afraid of the death penalty nowadays... you need to threat them with LIVING ETERNITY IN FIRE AND DOOM for them to respect other people.

Doesn't everyone agree?

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
Stupid people don't understand the concept of value of a human life, morality, etc.

Therefore, if there was no religion, stupid people would rob, murder, etc. as there is no "penalty" involved.

Religion is ethics and morality in a pretty story, dumbed down to the level of the masses so they can comprehend. So the only reason the dumb people don't commit murder is not to go to hell. Going to hell is the main part of religion.

Going to hell is the CORE of christianity. If the paragraph saying "you will go to hell" is erased from the bible, and the pope says on TV "we were wrong about going to hell, there is no hell" then faithfull catholics would sharply drop till it reached zero, and the religion would end instantly.

Therefore, religion is a good lie, as it serves like a crowd control. If there was no christianity or other religion with the hell-threat, then our civilization would break down to disorder, as stupid people would start killing each other.

The law is insuficient to deal with crazy dumb people. We need the religion with the hell penalty. I mean, criminals aren't afraid of the death penalty nowadays... you need to threat them with LIVING ETERNITY IN FIRE AND DOOM for them to respect other people.

Doesn't everyone agree?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Everything you just said about religion has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not Christianity is true.

I don't believe in god or christianity and yet I value human life and have morals/ethics. I help old ladies cross the street and I live a respectable murder free life. Therefore, does this make me a super intelligent person who doesn't need religion and who is smarter than the "stupid people" who follow religion. Absolutely not. A lot of highly intelligent people follow religion and they are not "crazy dumb people". You're just saying that religious people are stupid and that without religion(with the eternal hell punnishment) the world would collapse and chaos would break out. How many people do you think there are in the world that believe in religion and the "hell punishment"? Better yet, how many people do you think have religion as the only thing holding them back from murdering everybody else? Your view of mankind is very misanthropic. Give mankind some credit. We're not all homicidal maniacs waiting to strike down our peers.

[David Sklansky]

"Better yet, how many people do you think have religion as the only thing holding them back from murdering everybody else?"

First you really mean "if they could get away with it". And you are right. Most religious people don't need religion to stop them. But a surprising number THINK they do.

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But a surprising number THINK they do.

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Are you serious? I've never asked a religious person about his homicidal fantasies, but do religious people really think this way? Religious People, stick up for yourselves here

[DougShrapnel]

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But a surprising number THINK they do.

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Are you serious? I've never asked a religious person about his homicidal fantasies, but do religious people really think this way? Religious People, stick up for yourselves here

[/ QUOTE ]I think what David was referring to was the typical response religious people make when hearing someone is atheist. "Without a God what is to prevent you from killing people if nothing matters." So much of the moral fabric of religious people is woven by their religious education that they become unable to reason that people are able to make any moral judgments without a god. It extends and permeates their entire being so thoroughly that all of lifes meaning is derived from god, and anyone who does not have a personal god would likely kill themselves, or so the reason goes. It is this assimilation of self that most religious people have that prevents them from ever truly examining the belief in God. When we on the board discuss the existance of god, it is impossible, at first, for one of a highly religious nature to not mistake the argument as one of the existence of himself.

IMO religion is ethics for stupid people, and ethics is for people who aren't stupid but also not extremely intelligent

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO religion is ethics for stupid people, and ethics is for people who aren't stupid but also not extremely intelligent

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, let the geniuses run amok. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[r3vbr]

The existence of god is NOT relevant.

What is relevant is the existence of HELL or not.

Because people are only religious because they are AFRAID of the PUNISHMENT.

If god existed, but did not punish people for their actions, then the whole purpouse of religion (to control society) would lose its meaning.

[A_C_Slater]

I agree.

You have managed to articulate a rage I have felt since the morning of the world.

[ QUOTE ]
Stupid people don't understand the concept of value of a human life, morality, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they do put value on human life and morality, maybe more so than smarter people(because they follow what they've been taught to be right and wrong), but don't necessarily follow their beliefs in what they do.

[ QUOTE ]
Religion is ethics and morality in a pretty story, dumbed down to the level of the masses so they can comprehend. So the only reason the dumb people don't commit murder is not to go to hell. Going to hell is the main part of religion.

Going to hell is the CORE of christianity. If the paragraph saying "you will go to hell" is erased from the bible, and the pope says on TV "we were wrong about going to hell, there is no hell" then faithfull catholics would sharply drop till it reached zero, and the religion would end instantly.

Therefore, religion is a good lie, as it serves like a crowd control. If there was no christianity or other religion with the hell-threat, then our civilization would break down to disorder, as stupid people would start killing each other.

The law is insuficient to deal with crazy dumb people. We need the religion with the hell penalty. I mean, criminals aren't afraid of the death penalty nowadays... you need to threat them with LIVING ETERNITY IN FIRE AND DOOM for them to respect other people.

[/ QUOTE ]

that, my friend, is one ridiculous postulation. You overestimate the role that religion plays in someone's decision to commit a crime. the #1 reason most of these stupid people don't commit crimes is fear of traditional penalties such as jail time, or the death penalty. Religion and eternal suffering in hell is probably the last thing on these people's minds...if someone thinks about killing someone else, they would be thinking about what happens if they're caught(sometimes they don't think about even that), but i doubt that someone that is going to murder someone is likely to be stopped by a fear of hell.

let's not forget that most crimes can be found to be justifiable in the minds of the criminal, at least the law doesn't pay attention to this... a fear of hell can be appeased by considering that they can be forgiven by God if they repent...and even that probably isn't needed for someone to justify the crime in their mind.

our society would break down in disorder?? I will admit that there may be a slight increase in crime, but the chaotic scene that you depict is just not realistic.

I can't believe that some of you people agree with this??

---perhaps i'm missing something, if so please point out what I'm missing, because I have no idea

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Doesn't everyone agree?

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No.

If you want counterevidence, look at any society where the predominant faith does not include a Hell concept and see if they have decayed into barbarian disorder.

there you go, finally a sane person in this thread

[A_C_Slater]

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I can't believe that some of you people agree with this??

---perhaps i'm missing something, if so please point out what I'm missing, because I have no idea

[/ QUOTE ]


All religion is mercantile in nature. People only follow it because they expect a reward in an afterlife or a way to avoid punishment.

Very few seek Christianity for purposes of inner peace. It's all self important bullshit. They do it because they have lost in life and they figure they can at least pretend to be elitists in some sort of afterlife.

These Islam extremists are killing as many American's as they can because they think they're going to get their horny little paws on 47 virginal girls in an afterlife. It's the same thing with devout Christians, just less extreme.



All these comments are in regard to devout religious followers. Not people who say they're Christian just because everyone else around them is as well. Those people don't count, they think and feel not. Only those who take religion seriously. And they take it seriously because they are merchant minded.

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I can't believe that some of you people agree with this??

---perhaps i'm missing something, if so please point out what I'm missing, because I have no idea

[/ QUOTE ]


All religion is mercantile in nature. People only follow it because they expect a reward in an afterlife or a way to avoid punishment.

Very few seek Christianity for purposes of inner peace. It's all self important bullshit. They do it because they have lost in life and they figure they can at least pretend to be elitists in some sort of afterlife.

These Islam extremists are killing as many American's as they can because they think they're going to get their horny little paws on 47 virginal girls in an afterlife. It's the same thing with devout Christians, just less extreme.



All these comments are in regard to devout religious followers. Not people who say they're Christian just because everyone else around them is as well. Those people don't count, they think and feel not. Only those who take religion seriously. And they take it seriously because they are merchant minded.

[/ QUOTE ]

but do you really think that, even when considering what you say to be true,(and i agree that it is) that these people, when considering whether or not to commit a crime, are considering the downside as hell, rather than jail??

[A_C_Slater]

No. I think they are more concerned with jail as they know if caught there is about a 98% chance they will go to jail, barring some legal technicality. But the concept of hell is also there as a preventive measure, but it is assigned a lower probability. For some it may be as high as 50/50 "there either is a hell or there isn't."

Violent animals tend to think in absolutes and black and white "either/or" logic patterns.

But of course, burning for all eternity is far worse and permanent a punishment than 25 to life or whatever. Therefore to some the concept of hell may be an even bigger preventive measure than jail.

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But of course, burning for all eternity is far worse and permanent a punishment than 25 to life or whatever. Therefore to some the concept of hell may be an even bigger preventive measure than jail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me an example of one single person who would have committed a violent crime but decided not to because they feared God's wrath. Do you really believe this stuff you are writing, or have you just gone too far in the debate to turn back now?

[A_C_Slater]

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Do you really believe this stuff you are writing, or have you just gone too far in the debate to turn back now?

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Both.


This is a prime example of primitive "either/or" logic systems.

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Do you really believe this stuff you are writing, or have you just gone too far in the debate to turn back now?

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Both.


This is a prime example of primitive "either/or" logic systems.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd punch you in the face for that remark, but I'm afraid of hell.

You dont understand the modern justice system. The system deters some people, but that isnt the primary reason it works. The primary reason our justice system works is because our laws underline and sustain society's values.

Besides that, nice troll

[r3vbr]

[ QUOTE ]
No. I think they are more concerned with jail as they know if caught there is about a 98% chance they will go to jail, barring some legal technicality. But the concept of hell is also there as a preventive measure, but it is assigned a lower probability. For some it may be as high as 50/50 "there either is a hell or there isn't."

Violent animals tend to think in absolutes and black and white "either/or" logic patterns.

But of course, burning for all eternity is far worse and permanent a punishment than 25 to life or whatever. Therefore to some the concept of hell may be an even bigger preventive measure than jail.

[/ QUOTE ]

You get my point. Amen.

[Spladle Master]

Read more; post less.

[malorum]

Hey Torquemada,
I loved your post.

[ QUOTE ]
The law is insuficient to deal with crazy dumb people. We need the religion with the hell penalty. I mean, criminals aren't afraid of the death penalty nowadays... you need to threat them with LIVING ETERNITY IN FIRE AND DOOM for them to respect other people.

Doesn't everyone agree?

[/ QUOTE ]

Rock on Baby

[RJT]

Ethics without Religion is stupid, people.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

Religion is ethics and morality in a pretty story, dumbed down to the level of the masses


[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you're trying to say if God didn't exist we would have to invent Him. Or maybe religion is the opiate of the people. Or maybe it's the revolt of the slaves against their masters.

[Siegmund]

I have a lot of sympathy for where the OP is coming from. A lot of ritualistic displays -- whether its bowing your head to pray, listening to the choir chant dies irae ides illa solvet saeclum in favilla to a thunderous organ accompaniment, or saluting everyone with a stripe on his uniform you walk past -- serve one basic purpose, reminding the downtrodden of their insignificant place, with a veiled threat that anyone trying to advance himself can expect to be swiftly and brutally pushed back where he belongs.

How critical of a societal need this serves is open to debate.

But here we have a problem:

[ QUOTE ]
If the paragraph saying "you will go to hell" is erased from the bible, and the pope says on TV "we were wrong about going to hell, there is no hell" then faithfull catholics would sharply drop till it reached zero, and the religion would end instantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, that paragraph wasn't in the bible to start with, but "the masses" can't be bothered to crack open the big book and discover this for themselves. Five representative lines of what the Bible actually says will happen when you die: "His breath goeth forth, he retumeth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." ""For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." "Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."

But who ever let the actual words of the bible get in the way of a good debate about Christianity?

---

From another poster late in the thread:
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Sounds like you're trying to say if God didn't exist we would have to invent Him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there are a significant number of people on this forum who will assert that God doesn't exist and he was invented to serve the above mentioned social needs, among others. In fact you'll find a great many respectable books on mythology citing a universal need to make up supernatural stories to explain the unknown, stories that get abandoned when something more believable comes along. (But those fine upstanding Christian authors were talking about those other gods that those poor confused foreigners made up, not their own One True God, of course.)

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]

From another poster late in the thread:
[ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you're trying to say if God didn't exist we would have to invent Him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there are a significant number of people on this forum who will assert that God doesn't exist and he was invented to serve the above mentioned social needs, among others. In fact you'll find a great many respectable books on mythology citing a universal need to make up supernatural stories to explain the unknown, stories that get abandoned when something more believable comes along. (But those fine upstanding Christian authors were talking about those other gods that those poor confused foreigners made up, not their own One True God, of course.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Sig,

NotReady was being facetious. He was quoting Neitze, Marx and not sure the last allusion (possible one of the two again). In other words -it has been said before.

RJT

[Siegmund]

[ QUOTE ]

NotReady was being facetious. He was quoting Neitze, Marx and not sure the last allusion (possible one of the two again). In other words -it has been said before.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Long as he's aware of the fact that this thread is going to get a lot more posters agreeing with Nietzsche and Marx than agreeing with what they heard in Catholic sunday school, all is well. I just have been particularly amused by articles I've read that point out sillinesses of one mythology in one breath and then only virtues of Christianity in the next.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

NotReady was being facetious. He was quoting Neitze, Marx and not sure the last allusion (possible one of the two again). In other words -it has been said before.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Long as he's aware of the fact that this thread is going to get a lot more posters agreeing with Nietzsche and Marx than agreeing with what they heard in Catholic sunday school, all is well. I just have been particularly amused by articles I've read that point out sillinesses of one mythology in one breath and then only virtues of Christianity in the next.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure that NotReady would have a problem there. (He is a Protestant brethren. I am Catholic, btw.). /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Stupid people don't understand the concept of value of a human life, morality, etc.

Therefore, if there was no religion, stupid people would rob, murder, etc. as there is no "penalty" involved.

Religion is ethics and morality in a pretty story, dumbed down to the level of the masses so they can comprehend. So the only reason the dumb people don't commit murder is not to go to hell. Going to hell is the main part of religion.

Going to hell is the CORE of christianity. If the paragraph saying "you will go to hell" is erased from the bible, and the pope says on TV "we were wrong about going to hell, there is no hell" then faithfull catholics would sharply drop till it reached zero, and the religion would end instantly.

Therefore, religion is a good lie, as it serves like a crowd control. If there was no christianity or other religion with the hell-threat, then our civilization would break down to disorder, as stupid people would start killing each other.

The law is insuficient to deal with crazy dumb people. We need the religion with the hell penalty. I mean, criminals aren't afraid of the death penalty nowadays... you need to threat them with LIVING ETERNITY IN FIRE AND DOOM for them to respect other people.

Doesn't everyone agree?

[/ QUOTE ]
There would also be people more intellegent than you or I who would start killing people. I might even try my hand at killing.

I am going to answer this the way it needs to be answered.
I AM an intelligent person, and the possibility of Hell is EXACTLY what keeps me from killing. And if there is no other reason to keep YOU from killing this is a good enough one. In gambling terms if there is a .000000000000001% chance of hell, and if you go there you are looking at serving .000000000000000001% multiplied by an infinite amount of time. You are clearly getting the correct odds to not kill as long as you see eternity in flames as a -.
Sorry to all the geniuses but even YOU are getting laid the right price!!!!!!!
However I'm not saying that if there was ABSOLUTELY no hell I would kill EVERYONE. Just drug dealers, murderers, rapists (at least of my immediate family), and used car dealers.
Now that I have cleared this up for EVERYONE, go drop an opinion on my IQ of top players thread. As I don't have an ABSOLUTE answer in that as I do in this.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
I am going to answer this the way it needs to be answered.
I AM an intelligent person, and the possibility of Hell is EXACTLY what keeps me from killing. And if there is no other reason to keep YOU from killing this is a good enough one. In gambling terms if there is a .000000000000001% chance of hell, and if you go there you are looking at serving .000000000000000001% multiplied by an infinite amount of time. You are clearly getting the correct odds to not kill as long as you see eternity in flames as a -.
Sorry to all the geniuses but even YOU are getting laid the right price!!!!!!!
However I'm not saying that if there was ABSOLUTELY no hell I would kill EVERYONE. Just drug dealers, murderers, rapists (at least of my immediate family), and used car dealers.
Now that I have cleared this up for EVERYONE, go drop an opinion on my IQ of top players thread. As I don't have an ABSOLUTE answer in that as I do in this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your argument is flawed for the same reasons that Pascal's wager is flawed.

Do you avoid going to hell by following the moral code of christianity, judaism, hinduism, or how about an obscure pagan conception of hell from a few millenia ago? How about the conception of hell of crazy Steve, who lives down the street? After all, there is a .0000000000000000001% chance he is telling the truth that you need to pull off all of your toenails to avoid going to hell.