Unusual PF play.

[Apathy]

Lost the HH.
blinds 15/30
MP limps (1.3k) I limp with 99 and 900 chips, co limps (1k), button minraises to 60 (1k), BB calls (700), MP calls....


Apathy Pushes.

Do other people make this sort of play consistantly? I would often tend to take a flop here.

[syka16]

do you think that's better than trying for a set?

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
do you think that's better than trying for a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's what this thread is about. Share your opinion and maybe we can get a discussion going.

[pergesu]

Wow I did the exact same thing today, but I was in the SB with 99.

I initally limped so that I could hit a set. Then the BB minraised, there were two callers. I could play for a set here, but now there's like 450 in the pot (level 3), which increases my stack by 50%. So I'm happy to try to take it right now after nobody showed real strength, plus I have a hand that figures to rate well when called.

I think that's exactly what you did here. Limped for a set, then after the min-raise, the pot increases your stack by ~200, or 22%, so it's worth trying to take.

I would like it better at the next level, when the pot is even bigger, but I like it a lot here too.

[syka16]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
do you think that's better than trying for a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's what this thread is about. Share your opinion and maybe we can get a discussion going.

[/ QUOTE ]

suppose these #s are correct.

you push 99 everyone folds + EV210
you push and are called by 88, 99, TT, JJ AQ+ (win 50.5%) +EV65


I guess you're called 20% and you steal 80%... dunno.

If so, +EV180 is the total from the move... I don't know if a set is higher EV... but that looks pretty good if my #s are correct



/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[viennagreen]

i did the same thing with 99 in a 109 today from the BB... got called by initial min-raiser holding AQo.. i lost to a AQ on the flop

it's something that i think works better during the week, rather than on weekend nights though--- not that i mind terribly, getting called by someone with overs, but just taking the pot down is better.

[applejuicekid]

Yes, I do this sometimes.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t840)
Button (t3430)
SB (t1660)
BB (t1020)
UTG (t1490)
MP1 (t220)
MP2 (t1340)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t50, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t100</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t50, UTG calls t50, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t840 (All-In)</font>, Button calls t740, BB folds, UTG folds.

Flop: (t1905) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t1905) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t1905) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1905

[microbet]

Tough call. Very similar thing happened with 99 to me while I was thinking about it, so I pushed. The raiser and caller folded, one saying AJ.

It's always tempting, but I don't usually do it.

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like it better at the next level, when the pot is even bigger, but I like it a lot here too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think it is much less likely anyone has a strong hand at this blind level with the given action rather then at 25/50 with the same action and stack sizes?

[microbet]

Dammit, 99 in a close call situation again. Pushed and it worked. Whew. I have to stop reading while I play.

[splashpot]

I did this today. Usually the guy who minraised has something like AJ or KQ. The majority of the time, you'll just take the pot. I would probably only do it if there are at least 3 other people who limped. Any fewer than that and I just call.

[Bonafone]

I do it occasionally at the 55's.

One thing to consider is that most opponents know that you will not overlimp with aa/kk here, which may or may not increase the chances of getting a call depending on your opponents. (yes i know this isn't much help)

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
I do it occasionally at the 55's.

One thing to consider is that most opponents know that you will not overlimp with aa/kk here, which may or may not increase the chances of getting a call depending on your opponents. (yes i know this isn't much help)

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that your opponents will be making almost perfect decisions after you push is quite important here actually.

[viennagreen]

i agree that at the 25/50 level, the likelihood of running into a strong hand increases and also increases with increasing buy-in level

[microbet]

That will be true most of the time you push with 99, but often you can't fold it and can't trap with it.

You possibly be making their raise and call preflop a pretty decent mistake.

And, still some donks will call with a lower PP and some rocks will fold TT or JJ, which would be huge mistakes either way.

It was a good point, just some counters, and trying to make peace after my canada bashing.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would like it better at the next level, when the pot is even bigger, but I like it a lot here too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think it is much less likely anyone has a strong hand at this blind level with the given action rather then at 25/50 with the same action and stack sizes?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I think anyone with a stronger hand would be more inclined to put in a raise or reraise at 25/50, not even giving you the chance to make this play.

I did the same thing a couple of weeks ago. I thought there was a good chance it was wrong at the time, but I also thought it was close so I didn't sweat it.

[maddog2030]

All depends on who the button is since he is the only one to be worried about. The play is pretty transparent but there isn't really anyone who can punish you here for that.

That being said, in most cases I'm taking this pot everytime unless the button has told me something important beforehand.

[Chaostracize]

I like this play with AK and don't like it with AQ. I don't really like it with 99 and TT, but I think it's fine with QQ and JJ. That's all I have to say. I think the chances of someone limping and calling an all-in with JJ, QQ, and AK are all high enough to make an all in with the hands I don't like, bad. (Although, most people do raise these hands pf, I usually limp with them).

[bennies]

[ QUOTE ]
All depends on who the button is since he is the only one to be worried about. The play is pretty transparent but there isn't really anyone who can punish you here for that.

That being said, in most cases I'm taking this pot everytime unless the button has told me something important beforehand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree it depends mostly on our read of the button. I would usually be cautious though and only call unless I knew button liked to have the initiative/splash chips.

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
I like this play with AK and don't like it with AQ. I don't really like it with 99 and TT, but I think it's fine with QQ and JJ. That's all I have to say. I think the chances of someone limping and calling an all-in with JJ, QQ, and AK are all high enough to make an all in with the hands I don't like, bad. (Although, most people do raise these hands pf, I usually limp with them).

[/ QUOTE ]

How are the chances if some one limping QQ JJ AK etc. high enough if most people raise. You are admitting limping them is a strange play, but you are saying that it is likely for some one to have them make up your mind.

[Newt_Buggs]

It's rare when I get the opportunity, but I have done this.

[maddog2030]

There's only 2 hands I'm worried about: TT and JJ. And even then I'm only worried about the button having it. Overcards I'm indifferent to as I'm getting a little better than a freeroll at over 200 chips.

[Kanchi]

I do this play a lot at the $33's in level 1/2. I've never done it with 99 though, just JJ/TT. I feel glee everytime I get to push anywhere but this spot is most fun. I'll take a flop if the amount of dead money in there isn't worth it but usually there's 200 or some odd chips I can add to my stack without a flop.

The extra 200ish chips helps me add more chips to my stack before the push/fold blinds come up. Whenever I do get called though it's by some crap like A8s or whatever. You're most likely way ahead after people go limp/call or flat call.

[Cactus Jack]

I dunno, man. At the pathetic levels I play at, that might be good or cya bye and some jerkoff is typing UL. I limp often with AK and JJ-TT in the early rounds. (I just limped AQs from the SB, and dragged 300 chips in the second hand of an 11.) The blinds aren't worth taking with a raise, and trapping can put me comfortably into the late rounds of the tournament,when AK becomes pretty sweet. It seems more risky than necessary to push with a pocket pair that the fish can feed off of, and at low limits, they will feed by the river. I doubt I would call your push, but I doubt I'm the usual.

I think you must be playing at higher limits where a big raise is respected?

CJ

[Irieguy]

The problem with this play is that your hand becomes very transparent.

If somebody limps from a position when it is almost impossible that they are trapping with a big pair, and then pushes when the pot gets sweeter from a few weak raises and calls behind... what do they have?

So, you give all the other players the option of racing you when they know that your range is very narrow. This makes it difficult for your opponents to make a big mistake, and because a SNG involves only a few hands, you really want to create situations where you are giving your opponents a chance to make really, really big mistakes.

By seeing a flop here, you will have opportunities where your opponents can make big mistakes for their whole stack. You will lose a few chips often, and gain a bunch sometimes. By pushing preflop, you will win a few chips often, and lose a bunch sometimes. You will rarely win a bunch, and if you do, it will not be because you forced your opponents into a horrible play. (The exception to this would be if your opponents were particularly likely to call with smaller pairs, and fold with overcards. But this isn't typical at the levels you play.)

Irieguy

[Degen]

i've been experimenting with this a lot lately

open pushing behind multiple limpers etc

i like it, mucho

[Irieguy]

***** Hand History for Game 2769753886 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:16039100 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Saturday, September 24, 21:24:37 EDT 2005
Table Table 12002 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: ur4060atbest ( $975 )
Seat 2: ASlim024 ( $650 )
Seat 3: wsopwin ( $955 )
Seat 4: VRounder ( $975 )
Seat 5: ossdoug ( $880 )
Seat 6: Jimmygogo ( $485 )
Seat 7: Tnichols75 ( $1690 )
Seat 8: nataly555 ( $1525 )
Seat 9: dereksutton ( $960 )
Seat 10: EAGLE1956 ( $905 )
Trny:16039100 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ur4060atbest [ 9c 9d ]
dereksutton folds.
EAGLE1956 calls [15].
ur4060atbest calls [15].
ASlim024 folds.
wsopwin calls [15].
VRounder raises [80].
ossdoug folds.
Jimmygogo calls [80].
Tnichols75 folds.
nataly555 folds.
EAGLE1956 folds.
ur4060atbest is all-In [960]

In this situation, it is more likely that the short stack will make a pretty big mistake.

Irie

[curtains]

I probably wouldn't push in either of the examples given, however I would be more likely to push in apathy's example, as I think the chance of that preflop raiser having 99 dominated is smaller, due to the min raise. People min raise big pairs all the time, but very rarely do they do so after so many limps.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
open pushing behind multiple limpers etc

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I find this one far more rewarding, with much less risk. Having identified a habitual limper, no one too desperate behind...a much needed boost during the intermediate levels. Specifically at this level, where decent sized stacks are still trying to see flops. I'm pulling this most every game, when the condition presents itself, with alarming success. Not rocket science I suppose, but perhaps overlooked by some. Gaining these chips to get ahead of the blinds, saves you the unpleasant push of 5-7BB's, 5-6handed, in EP, later in the tourney.

55+5
Seat 1: (1600 in chips)
Seat 2: (1445 in chips)
Seat 3: (1195 in chips)
Seat 4: (1480 in chips)
Seat 5: (1795 in chips)
Seat 6: (2375 in chips)
Seat 7: (680 in chips)
Seat 8: (1725 in chips)
Seat 9: (1205 in chips)
Seat 3: posts small blind 75
Seat 4: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bluefeet [Kd 9d]
Seat 5: calls 150
Seat 6: calls 150
2 folds
bluefeet: raises 1055 to 1205 and is all-in
5 folds
bluefeet collected 675 from pot

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I probably wouldn't push in either of the examples given, however I would be more likely to push in apathy's example, as I think the chance of that preflop raiser having 99 dominated is smaller, due to the min raise. People min raise big pairs all the time, but very rarely do they do so after so many limps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think the chance of being dominated in Apathy's hand is much smaller. But it should still be small; and that risk should be worth the opportunity to race the small stack when he almost certainly doesn't have you beat, will almost certainly call, and cannot bust you.

Irieguy

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
open pushing behind multiple limpers etc

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I find this one far more rewarding, with much less risk. Having identified a habitual limper, no one too desperate behind...a much needed boost during the intermediate levels. Specifically at this level, where decent sized stacks are still trying to see flops. I'm pulling this most every game, when the condition presents itself, with alarming success. Not rocket science I suppose, but perhaps overlooked by some. Gaining these chips to get ahead of the blinds, saves you the unpleasant push of 5-7BB's, 5-6handed, in EP, later in the tourney.

55+5
Seat 1: (1600 in chips)
Seat 2: (1445 in chips)
Seat 3: (1195 in chips)
Seat 4: (1480 in chips)
Seat 5: (1795 in chips)
Seat 6: (2375 in chips)
Seat 7: (680 in chips)
Seat 8: (1725 in chips)
Seat 9: (1205 in chips)
Seat 3: posts small blind 75
Seat 4: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bluefeet [Kd 9d]
Seat 5: calls 150
Seat 6: calls 150
2 folds
bluefeet: raises 1055 to 1205 and is all-in
5 folds
bluefeet collected 675 from pot

[/ QUOTE ]

yikes, that one is going to be called more than you like it...

i meant at lvl 2

[Apathy]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with this play is that your hand becomes very transparent.

If somebody limps from a position when it is almost impossible that they are trapping with a big pair, and then pushes when the pot gets sweeter from a few weak raises and calls behind... what do they have?

So, you give all the other players the option of racing you when they know that your range is very narrow. This makes it difficult for your opponents to make a big mistake, and because a SNG involves only a few hands, you really want to create situations where you are giving your opponents a chance to make really, really big mistakes.

By seeing a flop here, you will have opportunities where your opponents can make big mistakes for their whole stack. You will lose a few chips often, and gain a bunch sometimes. By pushing preflop, you will win a few chips often, and lose a bunch sometimes. You will rarely win a bunch, and if you do, it will not be because you forced your opponents into a horrible play. (The exception to this would be if your opponents were particularly likely to call with smaller pairs, and fold with overcards. But this isn't typical at the levels you play.)

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly the thought process that should be involved in whether or not to push here. You state one side of the argument quite well. The reasons why looking at the example I gave is a push in my mind though are these:

- Although your hand is made transparent by pushing it is extremly likely to be the best hand, and it will be very difficult for anyone to justify calling looking for a race because you could have two big-ish cards (AQo, AJs, KQ) OR a medium pair (JJ-77), so they can't sit there with thier KQ and call 'knowing' they will be a race. Also you will be all-in so you won't be hurt be giving away your hand as much as in deepstack because there are no implied odds offered to your opponents on post flop decisions.

Also this doesn't (as was a point of yours) force them into big mistakes when you push but the key to this hand is the stack sizes. You are pushing to win about 235 chips, more (about a 25% stack increase). By calling the 30 chips you have a chance to win about 800 more by stacking someone which you will almost certaintly need to flop a set to do. Now take the times you flop a set (1 in 8) and the times you are actually able to win a signifigant amount of chips in this multi way pot where nobody has a strong hand and you can figure out what you stand to gain by "giving up" the opportunity to take down this 25% stack increase immediatly.

My point being that forcing one opponent into a very bad decision is of decreasing importance when you can gain from SEVERAL opponents making marginally bad decisions.

[Apathy]

I don't really like pushing in your example. You have a relativly high chance of being dominated by the open raiser (I would say almost 50%) who will probably call your over-bet push with as little as JJ and maybe 10s. He will also likely call with AK, not a very desirable outcome for you as that would only leave about 100 chips dead in the pot as you race for your stack.

On top of that the best case scenario seems to involve racing the short stack as I think an underpair is a pretty unlikely hand for him (but possible) for half of your chips with still only about 100 dead in the pot. Sure I would take that bet on its own but coupled with the reasonable chance of being called by the big stack and a very small chance of just taking the pot down without a showdown I don't like the push.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
consistantly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Schools are for fish.

<font color="white"> in ya face </font>

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]


This is exactly the thought process that should be involved in whether or not to push here. You state one side of the argument quite well. The reasons why looking at the example I gave is a push in my mind though are these:

- Although your hand is made transparent by pushing it is extremly likely to be the best hand, and it will be very difficult for anyone to justify calling looking for a race because you could have two big-ish cards (AQo, AJs, KQ) OR a medium pair (JJ-77), so they can't sit there with thier KQ and call 'knowing' they will be a race. Also you will be all-in so you won't be hurt be giving away your hand as much as in deepstack because there are no implied odds offered to your opponents on post flop decisions.

Also this doesn't (as was a point of yours) force them into big mistakes when you push but the key to this hand is the stack sizes. You are pushing to win about 235 chips, more (about a 25% stack increase). By calling the 30 chips you have a chance to win about 800 more by stacking someone which you will almost certaintly need to flop a set to do. Now take the times you flop a set (1 in 8) and the times you are actually able to win a signifigant amount of chips in this multi way pot where nobody has a strong hand and you can figure out what you stand to gain by "giving up" the opportunity to take down this 25% stack increase immediatly.

My point being that forcing one opponent into a very bad decision is of decreasing importance when you can gain from SEVERAL opponents making marginally bad decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can buy all of that except the last sentence. I'm not sure there are very many players standing to make marginally bad decisions in this hand... they are all likely to fold correctly after having limped correctly a majority of the time. But the more they limp, the more I like your play and your justification.

I never thought the play was that bad, but hearing you discuss the chips you stand to gain as a percentage of your stack I think I like your push quite a bit more.

Irieguy

[Moonsugar]

If you will also do this with AA then I like it, if you won't then I don't. I will do this with 99+, AKs occasionaly. The danger of playing this way if you won't play AA like this should be obvious.