42o in the BB, would you play it?

[davidross]

Played a hand, Online 5/10 with eMark the other night. Mark was UTG and raised. 2 cold callers to me in the BB, and I called. I'm getting 7 to 1 here. I don't make the call heads up or even against 2, but against 3 or more I do. What do you think??

As you can imagine I won the hand or else the play never would have come to light, and Mark expressed some disdainfor the play. Post flop it was straightforward I think.

Flop was A 2 5, giving me bottom pair and a gutshot. Mark bet, got one caller and I called. I don't remember what the turn was, but there was no flush draw and we both called Mark's bet. River brought my 4 and I bet my 2 pair. Mark folded the other guy called and I dragged it.

I will play almost anything given those odds. AM I crazy?

[bad beetz]

oh, good god, muck, muck. four-deuce no good.

[Bob T.]

I will play almost anything given those odds. AM I crazy?

I think so. This seems way to loose to me. You are going to be out of position all hand, and you won't be able to bet anything with confidence unless you make at least two pair. I guess you are saying that in a family pot you would call with this on the button. The odds are the same, but the implied odds would be much better on the button. I wouldn't play it in either spot.

On the other hand, I know that you like to play connectors, and suited cards much more liberally than I do, so you probably have a lot more experience with these hands, than I do, and you will probably play them better than I would after the flop. Additionally, you may very well get some extra action in the future, either because you are perceived as being too loose, or because someone tilt's a little bit and wants to punish that 'crazy 42 off guy'.

I think that you played your hand reasonably after the flop. But I just don't think that you are going to get many flops where you have a big enough piece of the flop to justify this call.

[Allan]

David,

I understand that you are the type of player who likes to be involved in as many hands as possible, but I think you are taking things way too far. How often do you think you are gonna drag the pot here?

Does your thought process go something like this?

Well eMark raised preflop UTG, he must have a good hand. I've got real crap here but maybe I'll hit the flop. I'm gunning for my longshot straight or straight draw to flop but I'll probably get a small piece if anything, thats OK, with all these callers the hand is gonna play real straightforward post flop so I'll probably be able to check call and try and suckout with no real problem.

Put another way, someone calls with crap getting whatever : whatever preflop. He gets to the showdown where he beats your whatever with whatever. Are you happy he has called preflop?

Explain to me how you think this can be a good call.

Allan

[bernie]

7-1 isnt the most dazzling odds.

i wouldnt play it here unless it was suited. im guessing emarks preflop standards in his spot are kinda high, and anyone with even 55 has ya buried. since youll need 2 cards to win and your only playing for a str8 draw and not a flush. unless you really think a 4 or 2 high flush will win.

maybe a family pot with me ending the action i may call this.

this hand isnt that great. at all

but it should help slow players down from stealing your blind though

b

[Georgia Peach]

Any two can win, right? And why not play 42o if you don't make a habit of it. It will certainly give Mark something to think about the next time you cold call him.

[Jeffage]

EASY fold preflop. Playing hands like this to a solid UTG raise is just begging to get busted.

Jeff

[glen]

"I'm getting 7 to 1 here. I don't make the call heads up or even against 2, but against 3 or more I do. What do you think?"

Look at it this way - would you limp in with 42o getting 7 to 1? I wouldn't. I find a lot of people justify calling in the blinds only because they have something invested. Throw these trash hands away and watch your opponents call with them. . .

[davidross]

OK. I was hoping for some more reasons besides it's a bad hand. Any hand is playable getting the right odds. My question is what are they for a dog like 42o. 42s is a call here, I think, because you will flop a 4 flush 1 in 7.5 times. Obviously I will not win this hand with a pair of 4's or a pair of 2's, so what are the odds of me flopping 2 pair or better, or a straight draw. And if I flop 1 pair, do I have odds to chase my 5 outs on the turn. With the flop I got my post flop play was justified. But how often will I get a flop like that?

Someone asked if I'd play this on the button. With 7 limpers I would. But my gut tells me if we ran some simulations I probably need at least 1 more caller to make this playable.

[Bob T.]

David, I wouldn't play it, most others wouldn't play, it, but you would, and that is OK. You have enough experience, and a winning record over time. You have developed a style and set of plays that works for you, that includes apparently defending your big blind and button with a hand that most of us wouldn't touch. You've played enough, to know that a lot of hands aren't played in a vacumn, but are played in relation to other hands. This just might work with your style.

Maybe this allows you to steal a couple of extra pots, when the flop comes all low, and all the other players say, 'I won't play, that's right in mr. 42 off's wheelhouse,'. Maybe you get paid off a little more often on some other hands, because people either think that you don't have a real hand this time, or they think that if anyone that plays weak cards, they can win back the bets later on. Maybe you just get paid off on hands like this one, where people are thinking that river could have only hurt me if he had 32 or 42.

I'm not going to play it, but if it works for you, go ahead.

[Jeffage]

In HPFAP, S&M talk about calling raises with these types of crappy hands from the BB (their example is 54o). The advice is that these types of hands usually need to be suited to be profitable bc they would usually have two ways to win (a flush or str8). 98o would be a better hand because it is much more likely to win the hand with something like a pair of 9's than a pair of 5's. And you have 42o, which is even worse than 54o. If you think you are such an expert that this hand is profitable for you, that's cool. Just know that just about every player who makes money at this game disagrees.

Jeff

[exist47]

NEVER play 42o unless you are in the BB in an unraised pot. Look at these stats for 42o from Turbo Texas Hold'em.

flop three 4's or three 2's = 1.3% or 73.2 to 1

flop two pair 4's and 2's = 2.0% or 48.5 to 1

flop 5 card straight = 0.6% or 154.6 to 1

flop pair of 4's = 13.5% or 6.4 to 1

flop pair of 2's = 13.5% or 6.4 to 1

flop unpaired open end straight draw = 2.2% or 44.4 to 1

The only hand you have relatively good chance of hitting is a pair, which will almost never win and almost always end up costing you money. The percentage of time that you hit a hand that might hold up (trips, two pair, a straight) is 3.9%. My guess is that you need at least 25 to 1 odds (most likely more) to make playing 42o profitable.

[Joe Tall]

42s is a call here, I think, because you will flop a 4 flush 1 in 7.5 times.

I would need way more than 7.5 to call with 42s to make up for time you draw a flush and lose to a higher flush. Just think, 53s has you dominated here...um, that's quite a sobering fact. I've NEVER played 42o, unless it was free in the BB.

[Allan]

Maybe these excerpts will give you give you some stuff to think about,

From Sklansky's TOP

The most comon mistake players make is playing too many hands. In Las Vegas I frequently find this tendency to be the only weakness in some opponents. Everything else about their play is top-notch. Consequently, there is little I can do to take advantage of these players' mistakes other than not play as loosely as they do. Yet just by playing better starting hands than they do is a decent edge.

From Zee's essay The Different Stages In a Players LIfe

All hands start to look like they have value, and with skillful manipulation winning the pot is easy. He begins to believe that he can play bad hands for profit where in reality he can't. The player has taken a big step backward and a long leap forwards at the same time. The tight style needed is gone and a new imaginative style is born and he becomes loose aggressive. Unfortunately for him, if he gets too loose he loses all his money and may never recover. But for those that are moving up the ladder, this is the last leap before the finishing stage.

Allan

[Ulysses]

Here's the way I look at it:

This is a marginal at best call w/ 7 limpers (let's assume we know the blinds have bad hands) to me on the button, agreed? OK, that means even with position I don't like this hand against a bunch of so-so hands.

Now, what do we have? The same odds, except that I'm in worst position and against what are likely to be 3 pretty good hands.

Easy, easy muck. And I play a lot of hands.

[eMarkM]

Let's clarify some things. I think you have two different hands confused where I was UTG and you were one of the blinds. Thankfully, you did not call a raise with 42o. But, on both I gave you a hard time after the hand. From my hand histories:

Hand 1: I call UTG, UTG+1 calls, a loose LP player calls, you complete for $3 in the sb w/ 42o, BB (bad player) checks. Flop comes A49 rainbow and gets checked around. Turn comes 4 and you bet, everyone folds except BB. Horrible BB calls you down on the river with 95o.

Completing the sb is bad here. You needed a lot more callers for this to considered, like the whole table, if you ask me. You played it fine after that, obviously. Of course, what would have done if someone did bet the flop?

Hand 2: table has gone temporarily 7 handed. I raise UTG. Everyone folds and you call in the BB with J9o. Flop comes T94 rainbow. You bet out and I raise, you call. Turn comes Q and is checked around. River comes 8 you bet your straight, I call.

Here, I thought the call with J9o was marginal. Suited, ok. As it turned out, I had 77 and was trying to take advantage of a short table and you had me on the flop. I normally would limp w/ 77 on a full table. I should have folded on the river, at least, since you obviously had at least one of the overcards.

[Nottom]

Maybe for a half bet from the SB and a few limpers even then I think I could wait for 42s at least, but I just can't bring myself to ever pay a full bet for this hand. Next you will be contemplaiting cold-calling with 72o from the button in a capped family pot because you have position and the "odds can't be that bad can they?"

I think you've been playing too much recently and are getting into the "sure my hand may suck, but I can outplay these guys post-flop" mentality.

[davidross]

I didn't have the HH, so I was going on memory. My memory is pretty bad. I think I've been convinced on this one. J9 is right on my borderline for calls.

[davidross]

THat's what I was looking for. I appreciate it.

[davidross]

THe Zee excerpt sounds a little like me, except strangely enough my flops seen % has dropped from around 30% down to 25% in the last few weeks.

THanks for digging those up.

[Homer]

I'm not sure why this thread is getting so many responses. I guess it is just really really super easy to answer the question presented.

Fold. 42o is an easy fold getting 7:1 from the worst position.

-- Homer

[bad beetz]

I think another thing is that when 42 makes two pair it is incredibly vulnerable to anybody else with a pair. It's straights are vulnerable to higher straights, and when it makes boat and loses to a higher one, all of these things will cost allot of extra money.