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private joker
09-23-2005, 07:46 PM
Villain is a multi-tabling TAG, no doubt a 2+2er. 18/12/2 after 300 hands.

I called the flop c/r with the intention of raising the turn, but he check-called the turn. The river donk was odd -- is there any value in a raise there?

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Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB
W. Deranged
09-23-2005, 07:57 PM
My question is whether you are planning on folding to a turn check-raise.

The turn check here by villain is interesting. I think you're getting check-raised here a pretty good portion of the time, which means betting is risky in some sense. But checking behind and giving free cards to some kind of odd combo draw or something is bad. I'd actually be somewhat willing to check behind here some of the time simply because the only logical draw is back door.

I think as played there is really very little value in a river raise here.

I'm interested to know what villain has because his line is very interesting and he may have in fact played his hand very well.
hobbsmann
09-23-2005, 08:11 PM
I play it the same. A river rasie would be bad here IMO as I can't see a good player paying you off with anything you beat. Also, this line reaks of him setting you up for a bet/3-bet which would suck because you obviously can't pay off a 3-bet.

Thinking a little further I'm having a really hard time putting villian on a hand range here.
jgorham
09-23-2005, 08:17 PM
I like a river raise here because it gives KJ an excuse to fold. Villain doesn't have a set, and I doubt he calls with any hand in the SB that the 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif actually helps.
kross
09-23-2005, 08:20 PM
I think the villain put us on two big cards, and he has a smaller pair, and is trying to push us out. The second overcard on the turn probably scared the villain, thinking the K may or may not have helped us, but surely we must have a pair by now. The river donk is probably because he didn't want us checking through in case we still don't have anything, like AJ or AT.

I don't think a raise is prudent on the river, as he will probably fold any hand that we're ahead of.
ncboiler
09-23-2005, 08:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I like a river raise here because it gives KJ an excuse to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

K/J will not fold for one bet.
private joker
09-23-2005, 08:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I like a river raise here because it gives KJ an excuse to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think KJ is bet/folding this river? Wow.
jgorham
09-23-2005, 08:34 PM
Or KT, it really depends on if he knows you are a good player too. I mean, he is either betting into you to get three bet, or he is betting into you to fold. With that board and action, I think the second is more likely. His coldcall from the SB really limits his range of hands, no?
shant
09-23-2005, 08:43 PM
I can't think of a hand range a TAG played correctly like this. I don't raise the river.
jgorham
09-23-2005, 08:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I can't think of a hand range a TAG played correctly like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. This looks like a K, probably not a strong one, played poorly. But I think he only calls with K9s-KJ, which is why I think a raise here is good.
Entity
09-23-2005, 08:51 PM
Ni han.
private joker
09-25-2005, 01:21 AM
Villain showed K9 and MHIG. In retrospect I think he played it pretty well. I did miss a river raise, but this is one of the only hands he could have that I beat that he would call a river raise with.
Evan
09-25-2005, 01:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think he played it pretty well

[/ QUOTE ]
He [censored] up half the streets pretty bad.
SackUp
09-25-2005, 02:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think he played it pretty well

[/ QUOTE ]
He [censored] up half the streets pretty bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed.

bet/fold the turn
Evan
09-25-2005, 02:07 AM
If I were SB I'd call down a turn raise.
SackUp
09-25-2005, 02:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If I were SB I'd call down a turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously the button's preflop open range is huge in this situation but how many hands do you think he is raising on the turn after being c/r on the flop that you think you beat?
Evan
09-25-2005, 02:16 AM
A lot. Enough that I'd rather 3 bet than fold.
SackUp
09-25-2005, 02:33 AM
wow. i'm intrigued. I definitely need to work on my play HU and in blind steal attempts, but I'm having a hard time putting the button on a big enough range that would justify us calling his raise here.

I'm going to have to ponder this one a bit more.
Evan
09-25-2005, 02:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm having a hard time putting the button on a big enough range that would justify us calling his raise here

[/ QUOTE ]
Any king? Some Q's? Bluffs? Draws?