How can I crack low limit Hold Em?

[Nemo]

Hey everyone, name's Nemo and I just got into Hold 'Em a while ago. I studied a lot and played a bit of online and using some software and felt my game was pretty sharp. So I headed to an Indian Casino today and sat down 3/6. I played tight, rarely seeing the flop. I saw it a couple times and didn't like it and folded, then two specific times I liked it, bet hard, and won at the showdown. However, I only finished up $4 after a 2.5 hour session. It became frustrating to see these guys call with crap and take down huge pots. My friend played hard when an ace came on the board, then at showdown some guy showed his 2 7 offsuit, and the board had 2 7. How can one consistently pull in $6/hr with players like these? It seems hopeless. Looking for some reassurance that I can consistently do well. Thanks.


Nemo

[Bob T.]

My friend played hard when an ace came on the board, then at showdown some guy showed his 2 7 offsuit, and the board had 2 7. How can one consistently pull in $6/hr with players like these? It seems hopeless.

Players like these, are the reason that you can make money despite the high rake that you are undoubtably facing in a 3-6 game. If you don't understand why, then you are facing an uphill battle trying to beat the game.

[Nemo]

Bob,
Perhaps you could explain a bit more to me about these players, and how to crack this game. Even when I played tight and well, I still made hardly anything. I appreciate any help,

Nemo

[uclaguy]

I myself have just started playing low-limit hold'em over the last 9 months. From 2-4 to 6-12 you will always find players who make stupid calls and crack your pocket aces, but in the long run, you will profit from their poor descisions, probability states as much. In low limit games where there is not alot of pre-flop raising, I reccommend loosening up a bit and playing suited connectors (9-10 or better) and non-suited connectors (j-10) under the gun. This of course works only if you are in the typical low limit game where there is #1: LITTLLE PRE-FLOP RAISING and #2: AT LEAST 5 PEOPLE SEE THE FLOP. Lossen your starting requirements as your position increases, and if you are on the small blind call any non-raised pot with any suited cards. Flushes are the money hands in low limit. They will cost you money when your four-flush goes dead, but they pay themselves off the times you actually hit them becuase the pots get so huge. I assume you have read a good deal but let me suggest that you read and RE-READ sklansky and malmuth's "loose" section in "hold'em for advanced players". I also highly recommend Lee Jones' book on low limit hold'em.
Goodluck in the future ,
Chris

(PS the swing in low limits are wild, so besides good playing, bankroll is the most crucial factor to being successful.....200-300 big bets to minimize your chances of going broke to 5 % or less, i.e. $1600-$2400 for 4-8)

[TJD]

I too am fairly new to this game. I have been playing for 3 months or so online. I do not have a losing week to date so "maybe" I have learned how to play against loose players.

I use the word "maybe" because I believe that my table time is too short to be certain.

You seem concerned that you have not made your $15 after 2.5 hours play. This is the wrong attitude.

I have had sessions when I have not won a pot in 2 hours and been $200 down and have also had "mad half hours" when I have won $300. Neither of these is significant; except that the second type feels much more comfortable.

In these loose games ANYTHING can (and will) happen. You may be dealt many great pockets that win or you may be dealt great pockets that you ram and jam the pot with and lose. On a hand by hand basis the results are just down to luck nothing else.

You may try to improve your chances by eliminating some of the contenders when you have a vulnerable hand but whether the weaker players take any notice and fold may itself be little more than chance, depending on whether they think their star sign is favourable or whether they believe they are "running good"

To beat any game you just have to play better than your opponents. If they regularly come into the pot with T7o and then hang around calling 2 bets to fill a gutshot they will lose all their money. The comedians calling with A3o (except from the blinds) will also lose their money.

I lost 2 hands yesterday having raised preflop from early position with AKo. Flop came A high on both occasions and the river was a Q on one and a T on the other. In both cases the pot was heads up when the river card came. I paid off my opponents with AQo and ATo. They were each betting on a 43:3 shot with nothing like the odds to draw. I like those folks in the pot.

To beat low limit games I believe you need patience. If you get dragged into the poor play of your opponents you will lose like they do (in the long run).

I have found S&M, Jones and Carson to be all excellent learning tools. The each take a different perspective and they all need to be re-read several times before you can fully understand what they are saying.

If you want to learn how to beat these games, study these books and apply their wisdom.

[RydenStoompala]

It looks like you may need more hours of play before you decide the low limits are infected by too many river rats to make it worthwhile. In facing the same types, I found that getting a little more agressive pre-flop tended to narrow it down a little and then, if you happen to flop a great hand, string it out. Play fewer hands, isolate the calling stations and then, when you get what you want, hit the gas. Raise the turn and the river to see if they have something strange and re-raise if you know you're stronger. The lack of game choices can be anoying. Know for certain the weak guy is going to get streaky lucky and lay a big hurt on the table, so keep checking your temperature. Tilt is your biggest enemy in these situations, not the lottery player.

[anatta]

"How can one consistently pull in $6/hr with players like these?"
You've asked and answered your own question.

Everytime a player plays his hand incorrectly against you, you make money. The results on a particular hand don't matter. Learn why they are playing incorrectly, learn how to make this happen as often as possible, and play long enough so that you are GUARENTEED to get the inevitable positive results.

[Bob T.]

Nice post, TJD, Hope you continue to contribute here.

[Bob T.]

Basically, you need to be able to recognize what kind of mistakes your opponents are making, and then be able to adjust your play to those mistakes.

In a nutshell. If they are too loose ( and this is the most common low limit mistake ) you need to value bet more.

If they are too tight, you can semibluff, and bluff more often.

If they are too aggressive, you can trap more often.

If they are too passive, you can play more draws and call a little more often with moderate values, because they aren't likely to bet the river, unless they have a big hand, and then you can lay your hand down.

The important thing for you to know, is what good poker would look like, and to compare your opponents play to that, so that if they are making mistakes, you can see what kind of mistakes they made, and figure out what kind of adjustments to make.

Secondly, your expectations about how much money you might make at this game are out of line. In low limit games, the number one winner is the rake box. A good, player, can probably hope to break even to win a little bit over time. The best player at the table might be able to average winning 1 or 2 big bets an hour. But the good players standard deviation is going to swing him back and forth 10 big bets an hour, so in two hours, you don't even know if you were good, bad, lucky, or unlucky. All you know is that you have enough profit to stop at Taco Bell on the way home. In a two hour session you could win or lose as much as 50 big bets, but you are really only able to win, on average, a couple of big bets an hour, if you are the best player at the table.

Hope this helped.

[bad beetz]

for shizzle. TJD drops true kronkite for all of us.

I like to do some extra calling on the flop and raising the turns in this type of game. People will call a bet on the flop with zilch, and I mean like undercards to the board.

Lets say the flop comes down Ace-high and you have AKo. The man to your right bets. If the pot is very large, I like to call here and raise the turn. It's not slowplaying, it's just delayed leveraging. Even if you raise the flop, people are still likely to call. Raising the turn gets respect in these games. If someone hits runner runner because you did this so be it, they probably would have called anyway.

The table has to be set just right to do this, but I think it's important to leverage out idiots with big bets.

[bernie]

hopeless?

im tempted to be insulted at that if you think it is that easy to just come in and beat the game. like it happens overnight and we havent spent years working on our games. it takes much longer than just playin 'a bit' online and one session at a cardroom.

wondering what youll be posting when you hit a real bad run that lasts a couple weeks.

"Looking for some reassurance that I can consistently do well"

no one can reassure you until youve put in your time. id suggest playing more and studying harder. THEN you should do ok in the game.

b

[bernie]

"They were each betting on a 43:3 shot with nothing like the odds to draw. "

i think they had a little better odds than this, dont you? they have 3 outs to beat you.

just nitpicking a little /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

b

[TJD]

"i think they had a little better odds than this, dont you? they have 3 outs to beat you."

Funny, that's what I thought I said. 3 outs out of 46 leaving 43 non outs :-)

The guy with AQ had a very difficult situation I think. Except in the toughest games he must call my PFR with AQo surely? Once he flops an A and I bet he has to see the river surely. He may be dead (or near it) of course, but I could be being aggressive wuth KK,JJ etc. My choice would have been to have raised my bet on the flop to try and eliminate customers and see if I could get a clue as to where I stood but he chose to just call me.

The ATo had no right to be in the pot. A fold to an UTG raiser is automatic I would think. He deserved to lose a lot of chips but I thank him all the same for being in the pot and I hope he will continue to play exactly the same in the future.

May the flop be with you

T

[TJD]

"for shizzle. TJD drops true kronkite for all of us."

I am sure you are right but I have absolutely no idea what you mean :-(

The problem is mine! I'm sorry! I am too old. I have 2 children at school and they speak a different language to me. I am not sure which of us it is but someone is clearly from the planet Zarg.

I should be grateful if you would look up the phrase in your inter galactic dictionary and post a translation for me. It would be nice to know if I were being insulted or praised. Either will do, but uncertainty, as all poker players know, is a little discomforting :-)

I loved your phrase:-

"It's not slowplaying, it's just delayed leveraging"

I think this is excellent if you know your game. If no one is taking any notice of pot odds, then confronting them with 2 cold on the flop may not do the job and I agree with you that waiting, letting the guy bet again on the turn and then popping it can be better. However, if you see that a couple of stronger players are still to act behind you then you may choose to act on the flop in order to at least eliminate them.

It is all to do with the players in the pot. There are some you could not get out with a crowbar.

I did notice that you qualified your advice in the last paragraph and I suspect that you too will take table conditions/players into account when making your decision.

Interesting that S&M seem to support this approach whereas Jones advises hitting it on the flop since their call is still a "mistake" according to FTOP.

May the Flop be with you

T

[bad beetz]

keep this handy like the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy:

http://www.rapdict.org

[bernie]

"The guy with AQ had a very difficult situation I think. Except in the toughest games he must call my PFR with AQo surely? "

depends on how they think you play. if he was close to your left, he should be 3 betting or folding. texture also helps with this hand. this isnt that hard a hand to play.

"He may be dead (or near it) of course, but I could be being aggressive wuth KK,JJ etc"

if an A flops, this would depend on the texture of the board wouldnt it? i dont see you betting an underpair to the board all the way through here. unless your waiting to fold to a raise.

"My choice would have been to have raised my bet on the flop to try and eliminate customers and see if I could get a clue as to where I stood but he chose to just call me."

i agree but this can also depend on the pot size (number of players) and the board. either raise the flop or the turn. unless the turn becomes HU.

"The ATo had no right to be in the pot. A fold to an UTG raiser is automatic I would think."

it's not always an auto fold. again, it can depend on how he views you as a player. the more players in the pot, the worse his call with ATo is. but there are times i would 3 bet this hand against certain players who raise UTG.

didnt know there were any rights to seeing a flop. not saying i would call with it, but id roll out the carpet for him and give him a signed document saying he has the right to call this.

b

[TJD]

Thx nice site. It is bookmarked.

Unfortunately, the site seems to have fallen behind. I could not find shizzle of kronkite.

Still the world IS fast. :-)

T

[MD_]

I think the most important thing in low-limit hold'em is that when you raise, do it for value and to build a huge pot. Do not try to "limit the field." You are taxed a fixed amount per pot (I assume), so try to make the ones you win BIG ones. If you win fewer of them as a result, oh well.

-MD

[Ralle]

But surely the AQ wasn't way out of line calling your raise, and going to the river with top pair, second kicker? He might have put you on AJs, KQs, KK, QQ, JJ, TT or something like that. Maybe even ATs, AJo, KQo or 99 if he thought you were playing loosely.

[Bob T.]

But surely the AQ wasn't way out of line calling your raise, and going to the river with top pair, second kicker? He might have put you on AJs, KQs, KK, QQ, JJ, TT or something like that. Maybe even ATs, AJo, KQo or 99 if he thought you were playing loosely.

The fact that he called the raise preflop, means that he probably made a mistake. If he is going to play because he thinks the raiser has loose raising standards, then he should have probably three bet. It was certainly wrong for the player with AT to call the raise preflop.

[Joe Tall]

I had a great session in LL no-fold'em this weekend and posted in the B&M section as trip report. I'll be posting hands later, I hope my post helps, good-luck!

[Rockfish]

I believe that "fo' shizzle" is an assurance of correctness and that "true kronkite" is a reference to a well respected journalist representing authority and trustworthiness.

Hence the phrase "for shizzle. TJD drops true kronkite for all of us" means something like: "Absolutely, you may accept this information as the gospel truth".

Rapfish

[Ralle]

I agree.