KK goes up against a nasty board- what's my line?

[TheRapist99]

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (13.00 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero ????

No reads, 4th hand in. My gut instinct here is to raise raise raise me aggro aaaaaaaughhh but then when I think WHY to raise, I don't think it's compelling. It's likely that I am behind, I'm not going to get a better hand to fold here either.

I don't wanna fold though this pot is huge and I don't know the guy. 3 clubs isn't fun though and with an Ace, hell this is marginal.

So the correct line is to call it down unless a 4th club comes? Maybe? Yeah, I vote for that. Am I right?

[callmedonnie]

You can call down like a WA/WB line providing no more clubs fall. If he has a hand like JJ or QQ w/ club, he isn't going anywhere.

But the AK combos make me think the chances of winning this hand are really slim.

[TheRapist99]

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You can call down like a WA/WB line providing no more clubs fall. If he has a hand like JJ or QQ w/ club, he isn't going anywhere.

But the AK combos make me think the chances of winning this hand are really slim.

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So you'd consider throwing this away right here?

[callmedonnie]

I'd really want to have a read. I know it sounds weak, but I would consider it. But I am really not sure if that is wise. I advocated the WA/WB line because you lose the least when you are behind. I wouldn't put in any raises because you aren't folding anything and a lot of cards hurt you, and you might already be beat.

The only instance I could see a raise is if the case King comes down and no more clubs do.

The real problem with this hand is that you have no read. If a rock lead out, yes, I think I can fold.

[sy_or_bust]

I would usually fold immediately, but not in this pot. Call the flop, and consider a raise/fold on a safe turn, planning to check-down or fold a club river. Otherwise, without a read, call until the 4th club, sure.

[sean c]

The pot really isn't that big. If sb bets every street and you call your going to have to be good 1 in 6 for it to be the correct play. Your almost never folding a better hand and if your behind you have like zero outs. I would probably fold. Against a known opponent with position it might change but here I probably fold or call the flop bet and see if he fires again on the turn and decide from there.

Ugh. Great hand to think about, glad I'm not the one playing it. If he has AK, he either has the K /images/graemlins/club.gif or K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Do you have a read on SB? Will he cap with AK off (or even AQ) when he's out of position? If not, then the K /images/graemlins/club.gif is out of the picture and his most likely holdings are A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, AA, QQ, JJ, TT or the other KK.

If this is the range of hands I put him on, I'm ahead right now more often than not. Call flop, raise non-club turn? Call flop, raise club turn? Raise flop? I want to hear some ideas...

I think I call flop and raise a non-club turn...

[TheRapist99]

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I'd really want to have a read. I know it sounds weak, but I would consider it. But I am really not sure if that is wise. I advocated the WA/WB line because you lose the least when you are behind. I wouldn't put in any raises because you aren't folding anything and a lot of cards hurt you, and you might already be beat.

The only instance I could see a raise is if the case King comes down and no more clubs do.

The real problem with this hand is that you have no read. If a rock lead out, yes, I think I can fold.

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It turned out later that the guy was a maniac, 45 vpip 40 pfr... knowing that would make me more inclined to call it down. or even raise it up.

[Rduke55]

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Ugh. Great hand to think about, glad I'm not the one playing it. If he has AK, he either has the K /images/graemlins/club.gif or K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Do you have a read on SB? Will he cap with AK off (or even AQ) when he's out of position? If not, then the K /images/graemlins/club.gif is out of the picture and his most likely holdings are A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, AA, QQ, JJ, TT or the other KK.

If this is the range of hands I put him on, I'm ahead right now more often than not. Call flop, raise non-club turn? Call flop, raise club turn? Raise flop? I want to hear some ideas...

I think I call flop and raise a non-club turn...

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With it capped PF I do like the idea he's got a pair with a club.

[TheRapist99]

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With it capped PF I do like the idea he's got a pair with a club.

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KJo, with the Jack of Clubs.

Not kidding.

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KJo, with the Jack of Clubs.

Not kidding.

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In that case make a note and add him to your buddy list. Maybe he hit his club and won this time, but hope that he caps with KJo next time you have KK too...

[callmedonnie]

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With it capped PF I do like the idea he's got a pair with a club.

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KJo, with the Jack of Clubs.

Not kidding.

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That is why I struggle to lay this down without a read. I would probably call until the club fell. Raising he has odds. If you are going to raise, the turn is definitely the time to do it.

Out of curiosity,how did the rest of the hand play out?

[TheRapist99]

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With it capped PF I do like the idea he's got a pair with a club.

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KJo, with the Jack of Clubs.

Not kidding.

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That is why I struggle to lay this down without a read. I would probably call until the club fell. Raising he has odds. If you are going to raise, the turn is definitely the time to do it.

Out of curiosity,how did the rest of the hand play out?

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I raised the flop, he called. Club on the turn, he checks I bet he raises. I know I gotta fold here but instead for some reason I call it down.

I think about it and say to myself wow, misplayed on every street. I'd better go tell everyone at 2+2.

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Club on the turn, he checks I bet he raises.

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Like the flop raise a lot. Another advantage of it is that when a horrible card (club) comes on turn you can often get a free card. If he has a club you're dead and can get a showdown in a large pot for one BB. If he has a lower pocket pair without a club you can afford a free card because he only has one out to win. If a 5th club comes then you might very well chop - which is good when he has an A but bad when he doesn't.

[AustinDoug]

Did you rape someone in 1999?

[cold_cash]

I don't like raising, nor do I necessarily like calling all the way down.

[TheRapist99]

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Club on the turn, he checks I bet he raises.

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Like the flop raise a lot. Another advantage of it is that when a horrible card (club) comes on turn you can often get a free card. If he has a club you're dead and can get a showdown in a large pot for one BB. If he has a lower pocket pair without a club you can afford a free card because he only has one out to win. If a 5th club comes then you might very well chop - which is good when he has an A but bad when he doesn't.

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That's interesting- I didn't think of it in those terms. I'd probably take it back if I could though, as most of the time I'm probably beat here, and even if I'm ahead I'm very vulnerable. Against a normal range of hands PS says I have about 40% equity, so it's likely I'm behind, but if a blank non-club falls on the turn my chances improve, as well as any other Ace or a King that's out.. it might not be bad to pop him with a turn raise. If I'm 3-bet and it's a blank I'm 95% beat and might just cut it there.

[TheRapist99]

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Did you rape someone in 1999?

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No, I retired from raping in the late 80s. I was past my prime, Father Time caught up with me.

[callmedonnie]

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Another advantage of it is that when a horrible card (club) comes on turn you can often get a free card. If he has a club you're dead and can get a showdown in a large pot for one BB.

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These two statements don't make sense together. Why the hell would we want a showdown when we are dead? In these spots raising the turn is much better if a safe card hits.

Think about it this way. A non club turn gives us a great chance to raise. When we raise the flop we set it up so that we will likely be checked to. If villain is drawing to a club he will call and we don't have the ability to get two in on the turn. When a club does hit, we commit ourselves to betting following up our flop bet w/ a turn bet because we can't just give up. So then we are very vulnerable to the check raise.

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Why the hell would we want a showdown when we are dead? In these spots raising the turn is much better if a safe card hits.

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Waiting for the turn to raise is a mistake. Once hero calls the flop, what hands would he expect villan to bet turn with? Maybe QQ or JJ, but most likely he'll bet if he has an A, trying to protect his hand.

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Think about it this way. A non club turn gives us a great chance to raise. When we raise the flop we set it up so that we will likely be checked to. If villain is drawing to a club he will call and we don't have the ability to get two in on the turn. When a club does hit, we commit ourselves to betting following up our flop bet w/ a turn bet because we can't just give up. So then we are very vulnerable to the check raise.

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Not betting the turn after a flop raise is not giving up. It is just getting you to a showdown as safely and cheaply as possible.

[TheRapist99]

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Why the hell would we want a showdown when we are dead? In these spots raising the turn is much better if a safe card hits.

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Waiting for the turn to raise is a mistake. Once hero calls the flop, what hands would he expect villan to bet turn with? Maybe QQ or JJ, but most likely he'll bet if he has an A, trying to protect his hand.


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Sure, he'll bet if he has an A, but he'll also bet a lot of other hands, QQ,JJ and quite possibly (depending on the player) about anything with a high club.

I think you're probably right though- 3 betting from the SB I'm normally thinking here's his range- JJ+,AQs+,AKo+, my equity looks to be 40% with that flop and if a brick falls on the turn I only improve to 43%. This pot is big enough to call that though, easily.

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Not betting the turn after a flop raise is not giving up. It is just getting you to a showdown as safely and cheaply as possible.

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If I could guarantee I'd get a free turn card after my flop raise I'd probably make it, however with his pf 3 bet he seems like he knows how to raise and most of the hands that are beating me here 3-bet me and follow up with a turn bet.

Now I'm just confusing myself. I still have pretty much no idea how to approach this.

[bambi]

The villan didnt cap preflop, we did! and he 3 bet out of the small blind, i do this all the time with junk, when somebody is a late raise opener, and i no his style of play. when you might be raising 66-88 i dont mind getting it heads up with you when i have KJo

But then you capped it, and he was thinking oh [censored], he has a hand, then the board comes scary, and you have the third nut flush draw, of course he is going to have a stab at it.

We need to starting looking at how the hand transpired not just- It was capped preflop, look at the texture of the raises

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The villan didnt cap preflop, we did! and he 3 bet out of the small blind, i do this all the time with junk, when somebody is a late raise opener, and i no his style of play. when you might be raising 66-88 i dont mind getting it heads up with you when i have KJo

But then you capped it, and he was thinking oh [censored], he has a hand, then the board comes scary, and you have the third nut flush draw, of course he is going to have a stab at it.

We need to starting looking at how the hand transpired not just- It was capped preflop, look at the texture of the raises

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Hero raised in early position with already one limper on board, not a late position steal.