$11's: Call villains push w/ 3 flush cards on board? (2 hands)

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

I was on Tilt last night and made several bad plays...

but... I like my two hands, but 3rd flush card hits and villains push... why did they push? Are they 2+2ers making a move, or are they trying to steal? Am I a donk if I call? I thought a long while and realized that many 2+2ers don't like to push here... so it must be a steal... right?

Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: LopezFelipe (780)
Seat 3: s_k_y (745)
Seat 4: CapitalB (1545)
Seat 5: Dr_Jeckyl_00 (845)
Seat 6: happy_harry1 (640)
Seat 7: nicolasfouad (1620)
Seat 8: chene01 (710)
Seat 9: dumb___blond (595)
Seat 10: ryanrevland (520)
chene01 posts small blind (15)
dumb___blond posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Dr_Jeckyl_00 [ Kd, Ad ]
ryanrevland raises (60) to 60
LopezFelipe folds.
s_k_y folds.
CapitalB folds.
Dr_Jeckyl_00 calls (60)
happy_harry1 folds.
nicolasfouad calls (60)
chene01 folds.
dumb___blond calls (30)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ As, 6s, 7s ]
dumb___blond bets (535)
dumb___blond is all-In.
ryanrevland folds.
HERO?
Results in White <font color="white">
Dr_Jeckyl_00 calls (535)
nicolasfouad folds.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2s ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Tc ]
Dr_Jeckyl_00 balance 1575, bet 595, collected 1325, net +730 [ Kd Ad ] [ a pair of aces with king kicker -- Ad,As,Kd,Tc,7sKd(kicker card) ]
dumb___blond balance 0, lost 595 [ Jc Ac ] [ a pair of aces -- Ac,As,Jc,Tc,7s ]
</font>


Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: bbird300 (635)
Seat 3: Dr_Jeckyl_00 (655)
Seat 5: panastas (1690)
Seat 8: pitdog07 (965)
Seat 9: vman4051964 (3110)
Seat 10: any_craps (945)
bbird300 posts small blind (75)
Dr_Jeckyl_00 posts big blind (150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Dr_Jeckyl_00 [ 5s, 6h ]
panastas folds.
pitdog07 calls (150)
vman4051964 folds.
any_craps folds.
bbird300 calls (75)
Dr_Jeckyl_00 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8d, Kd, 2h ]
bbird300 checks.
Dr_Jeckyl_00 checks.
pitdog07 checks.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 5h ]
bbird300 checks.
Dr_Jeckyl_00 checks.
pitdog07 checks.
** Dealing River ** : [ 5d ]
bbird300 checks.
Dr_Jeckyl_00 checks.
pitdog07 bets (815)
pitdog07 is all-In.
bbird300 folds.
HERO?
Results in White <font color="white">
Dr_Jeckyl_00 calls (505)
Dr_Jeckyl_00 is all-In.
Dr_Jeckyl_00 balance 1460, bet 655, collected 1460, net +805 [ 5s 6h ] [ three of a kind, fives -- Kd,8d,5s,5h,5d ]
pitdog07 balance 310, bet 965, collected 310, lost -655 [ Ac 2s ] [ two pairs, fives and twos -- Ac,5h,5d,2s,2h ]
</font>

I have not yet checked the results, so here is my untainted analysis. In the first hand, I really doubt that the villain has a flush. Whatever the hand she holds is probably strong but vulnerable, or she is an $11 donk. My best guess would be she is protecting a hand like A6, A7, 66 or 77, for a set or two pair and does not want the one card spades to draw cheaply. Perhaps she could have the worst possible hand for you to see, AK with K of spades. Likely the only hands you can beat are Ax off with x= 10, J, or Q of spades. However, I think the majority of the time you are looking at a set, two pair, or a small made flush. Seeing as you still have t785, I would let this go and find a better spot to get your chips in.
In the second hand, I don't know what to think. If he made a flush, it seems like a bad bet to move all in for 800 or so at a 450 pot that no one has shown any interest in. Perhaps he backdoored trip 5's, but that is unlikely since he volutarily limped in. If he does have trip 5's, you are probably beat, as I would expect to see A5. Maybe he was slowplaying a flopped set and hopes to surprise someone with an unusual bet on the river. Finally, he could just be using his position to bluff at a pot that two shortstacks have shown no interest in. Both you and the other player would be out if you call this bet. I think, with only 500 or so chips left you have to call this bet. By the way, I hate your check when the second 5 came out. While he may have a better hand than you, more often than not he does not. However, by checking you have given him the opportunity to put you to a tough decision. I doubt he has a flush, because he should have bet the flop with a draw, I would make a crying call and hope not to see A5. Hope this helps. Now I gotta see what happened.

Okay, I was wrong on the first hand. Nice call. She was an $11 donk and made a bet that would only be called by hands that had her smoked. I don't think I could've made that call without a read that the player was overaggressive with marginal hands, but I play really tight early in these. Good job.
In reference to the second hand, I actually like your play a lot better now. By checking, you induced a bluff and won more chips than you could possibly have by betting out. In that hand, as I said, the three flush is not nearly as scary, as a reasonable player should have bet the flush draw on the flop or turn and the bet on the river wouldn't make a ton of sense if it was a flush. Well played here.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I was wrong on the first hand. Nice call. She was an $11 donk and made a bet that would only be called by hands that had her smoked. I don't think I could've made that call without a read that the player was overaggressive with marginal hands, but I play really tight early in these. Good job.
In reference to the second hand, I actually like your play a lot better now. By checking, you induced a bluff and won more chips than you could possibly have by betting out. In that hand, as I said, the three flush is not nearly as scary, as a reasonable player should have bet the flush draw on the flop or turn and the bet on the river wouldn't make a ton of sense if it was a flush. Well played here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're giving me too much credit. I checked the turn b/c all I had was a pair of 5's. I checked the river b/c I was scared of flush, not trying to enduce a bluff. I have been in this situation before and I have called and villain had flush, and I have folded and villain was bluffing. I think that if someone pushes a flush they are probably bluffing more than half the time (probably 90%) which would make calling with a strong hand very EV+... but I did not do that analysis until this morning /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Pudge714]

Easy calls in both cases how many people open push made flushes, these are auto calls