How important is position in PLO8?

[GooperMC]

Looking at my position vs. win rate there isn't a high correlation. However I don't have enough hand in my database for this to be really proven.

Can someone with a large database take a screen shot of their position stats and post them. It would also be nice to include limits and how many hands the stats cover? I will post my limited stats when I get home.

Thanks.

[Mendacious]

Mine are the same way. I really wonder at the limits I play for full ring games, whether position is somewhat overated, especially in PL where the re-raise is such a big weapon.

[TGoldman]

Here's my screencap from 40K hands at limits ranging from $25 - $100 PLO/8. My bb/100 does improve along with my position. Edit: Actually, maybe it's mostly just the button position that is improved by position.
http://home.comcast.net/~tbgoldman/poker/pto_position.jpg

[Ribbo]

In my honest opinion, most people haven't got the slightest clue how to use position. Yes it is overrated to a large degree, but still very important. Infact I do make a lot of money from players who think position means if everyone checks, they can bet their nothing.
If like Party Poker you're playing a game where there will always be a showdown and people are shoving, then position is a lot less important.

[TGoldman]

I actually played a hand against you once, where I was afraid to steal on the button because I had a feeling you were itching to re-steal from me. When you do suspect that the button is guilty of larceny, do you check-raise the full size of the pot or is a min-raise or somewhere in the middle just as effective?

[Mendacious]

Actually my results are somewhat better positionally than I remembered. However, my VPIP really does not vary. These stats are from .25-1 like yours.

http://show.imagehosting.us/show/708437/0/nouser_708/T0_-1_708437.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.us/index.php?action=show&ident=708437)

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually played a hand against you once, where I was afraid to steal on the button because I had a feeling you were itching to re-steal from me. When you do suspect that the button is guilty of larceny, do you check-raise the full size of the pot or is a min-raise or somewhere in the middle just as effective?

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe it or not, I very rarely steal from the button, almost all of my bets are value bets because I fully expect to be called. I do most of my stealing from under the gun on the turn, because you get a ton of respect, and everyone expects under the gun to check the flop when it hits, so if everyone checks behind you, it's a great time to bet on the turn.
I do like to check raise people on the button. I'm also just as happy to check hands down when I have a good hand in a blinds only small pot. I let the opponent decide if he wants to make it big or not.
The reason right now the button is valuable for me is not because you can bluff, but because when you bet, you get called. Likewise I expect the button to bet if everyone checks, so I will check hoping to check raise the whole table.

[gergery]

Position is pretty important in all NL/PL games. It’s more important in games where the hand values run closer together, like Omaha, as opposed to Holdem.

My stats show a smooth curve from EP thru the button on VPIP, PFR, % of hands won and so on, with a greater spike in CO and Button.

[Mendacious]

I believe it, but my results don't bear it out to the degree of importance that many people claim. Maybe that is my shortcoming, I tend to multi-table a lot, and as a result probably take less advantage of position than if I were paying closer attention to every factor.

[Ribbo]

Position is much more important in games where people don't shove. As we all know on Party Poker, people like to shove, completely negating any advantage of position. As it gives you no more information on later streets.

[FeliciaLee]

And this is the krux of it. The maximum buy-in is relatively shallow in proportion to the average pot size. We cannot use large stacks, in position, to bully very often. Not only because we don't always have a large stack, but because our opponents don't have enough money to avoid the risk of being all-in.

At the $25 PLO8 tables at Party (which I finally started playing, thank God!), someone is going all-in every other hand! This is a totally different game than the one Ciaffone wrote about...

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Chamonyx]

If the opponent is really short, you are right. However when the buy in is 100x the pre-flop bet, it is very difficult for one player to get all-in before the turn without some help.

If you are behind them then you have the choice of deciding whether or not to help them and when - isn't that where some of the value comes from?

[Mendacious]

Imagine what it was like 7 months ago when the max buy-in at party was 50BB's

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine what it was like 7 months ago when the max buy-in at party was 50BB's

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember it well with great fondness. Oh how I wish those times were back.

[stud7champ]

Fallacy, Position is always important particularly in O8 (Ask TJ Cloutier and Mcevoy ).
So if after the flop there is a raise and a reraise in front of you and you have A2 what you going to do?
What you put your opponents on? A23 and AAx? so you call to get quartered? Nope you use your position to make better decisions as more info is out there the later the position.

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
Fallacy, Position is always important particularly in O8 (Ask TJ Cloutier and Mcevoy ).
So if after the flop there is a raise and a reraise in front of you and you have A2 what you going to do?
What you put your opponents on? A23 and AAx? so you call to get quartered? Nope you use your position to make better decisions as more info is out there the later the position.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't need to have position to be able to fold to a bet and a raise preflop. If you limp in and by the time it gets back to you it's 15 bets more to call are you saying you cannot fold now because you don't have position? I love arguements like yours that are nothing but "yes it's important, someone else wrote it in a book so it must be true". Have you ever even played in any of the games we are talking about?

[stud7champ]

[ QUOTE ]
yes it's important, someone else wrote it in a book so it must be true". Have you ever even played in any of the games we are talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]
Heck lets get back to the point position is important. And yes a lot of the best players/ authors have said its important and no I do not play in your games because its a crap shoot, any one who uses software to help them keep tabs on thsir opponents play etc PTO is a cheat as far as I am concened, try that crap in Vegas and you are in jail, I kid you not ( I understand you do not use the software so you are excluded from my comment). Plus the collusion, disconnections and bots are rampant.
Finaly you dont play in my live games at the Mirage/Orleans in las vegas. I am the asian in the cowboy hat playing the $5/10 game. See you in Vegas

Ribbo wins main pot.
stud7champ shows Jack high and loses pot.

[DyessMan89]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes it's important, someone else wrote it in a book so it must be true". Have you ever even played in any of the games we are talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]
I do not play in your games because its a crap shoot, any one who uses software to help them keep tabs on thsir opponents play etc PTO is a cheat as far as I am concened, try that crap in Vegas and you are in jail, I kid you not ( I understand you do not use the software so you are excluded from my comment). Plus the collusion, disconnections and bots are rampant.
Finaly you dont play in my live games at the Mirage/Orleans in las vegas. I am the asian in the cowboy hat playing the $5/10 game. See you in Vegas

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not Ribbos #1 supporter, but hell, I think its quite obvious ...

Ribbo > You.

Come on man, PTO = cheating? WTF?

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes it's important, someone else wrote it in a book so it must be true". Have you ever even played in any of the games we are talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]
Heck lets get back to the point position is important. And yes a lot of the best players/ authors have said its important and no I do not play in your games because its a crap shoot, any one who uses software to help them keep tabs on thsir opponents play etc PTO is a cheat as far as I am concened, try that crap in Vegas and you are in jail, I kid you not ( I understand you do not use the software so you are excluded from my comment). Plus the collusion, disconnections and bots are rampant.
Finaly you dont play in my live games at the Mirage/Orleans in las vegas. I am the asian in the cowboy hat playing the $5/10 game. See you in Vegas

[/ QUOTE ]

Shoving preflop is the best thing to happen to the game of pot limit omaha/8 ever. It makes it an "action" game, and takes the emphasis away from the pasty faced nut peddlers. Yet at the same time, because let's be honest, I also want to win, allows me to win without being obvious I have a significant edge over the opponents.

[MyTurn2Raise]

[ QUOTE ]
any one who uses software to help them keep tabs on thsir opponents play etc PTO is a cheat as far as I am concened

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

[Jorge10]

[ QUOTE ]
any one who uses software to help them keep tabs on thsir opponents play etc PTO is a cheat as far as I am concened



[/ QUOTE ]

I dont use poker tracker on the table, I use it more like excel to keep track of wins and loses and review hands and plays I make, so I am not "cheating". What I dont get about this post is why it would be cheating, I mean pros have been using notebooks to take notes on players forever since poker first started. Were they cheating? Its a similar thing to poker tracker no? So are pros who use notebooks to keep track of players cheaters?

[emptyshell]

Fckin' A. Hell yeah. I'll see in Vegas. They play Pot Limit? Sh!t, I'll give up PTO any day to play your a$$. Cowboy hat, you say? I'll be the short fk w/ glasses and all your money.

[GooperMC]

[ QUOTE ]
because its a crap shoot

[/ QUOTE ]
Is that the reason the vast majority of posters on this site consistently make money?

[ QUOTE ]
bots are rampant.

[/ QUOTE ]
It seems like 1 out of every 2 opponents that I take money from is a bot. Ya right.

The O8 games are much softer live then the are online. This guy sounds like a marginal live winner and is looking for excuses for why he can't win online.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes it's important, someone else wrote it in a book so it must be true". Have you ever even played in any of the games we are talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]
Heck lets get back to the point position is important. And yes a lot of the best players/ authors have said its important and no I do not play in your games because its a crap shoot, any one who uses software to help them keep tabs on thsir opponents play etc PTO is a cheat as far as I am concened, try that crap in Vegas and you are in jail, I kid you not ( I understand you do not use the software so you are excluded from my comment). Plus the collusion, disconnections and bots are rampant.
Finaly you dont play in my live games at the Mirage/Orleans in las vegas. I am the asian in the cowboy hat playing the $5/10 game. See you in Vegas

[/ QUOTE ]

YSSCKY