89s

[crunchy1]

Villians are unknown.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG posts a blind of $2. UTG+1 posts a blind of $2.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 (poster) checks, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, Button folds, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

I think there's a lot that could be said about every street in this hand.

Release the hounds!!

[centja1]

Well, I never like to check twice in a hand without check-raising at least once. I can understand playing very passively in a small pot since it is really no big deal if anyone draws out on you, but I think at some point you need to decide whether you are ahead or behind here and make some of the others in the hand pay to draw. Your hand is good a substantial percentage of the time, but the passivity you've shown doesn't give you any clue as to where you stand.

i do think, though, when it is bet and called to you on the turn, you either need to raise or fold. If you're behind, you're getting just short of the correct odds to draw out against a jack. If you're behind to someone with an eight, you're in big trouble. I think you need to decide that you're ahead or behind at this moment and make a commitment. You have UTG+2 who is on some sort of draw and you should get some money from him while he is still drawing.

also, if UTG+1 raises after you check-raise the turn and lead the river, i think you can probably give some good thought to folding. with your line, you have to pay off a river raise from UTG+1 and still have no idea where you are until he shows his cards. i think the way you played it lets you win less when you're ahead and lose more when you're behind.

[toss]

I'd bet out on the flop.

I think you could've gone for a CR on the river. Theres some chance you might be outkicked, but you also would have UTG+2 trapped if he calls.

[peterchi]

I'd prefer to lead out the whole way. What was your reasoning for check-calling?

[stoli]

The only reason to not bet out on the flop is if you are going to check raise. If you are ahead you are barely ahead and thus you have a small edge. This is a good opportunity to pass on a small edge to try and get a larger edge later in the hand. A check-raise would be pointless here unless it was for value, because any of these people that have a flush draw would call and anyone else with top pair or better would call. The best option here is to bet out and hope that it thins the field or you get some information. I really dislike the check-call here.

The jack hitting is bad but like we read in SSHE you can't always assume the worst, bet out here and see what happens.

When the river hits you got your money card and although you may be able to get a check-raise in if you are against some aggressive players, I like the lead-out here.

[Aces McGee]

Hey crunchy...this one had me thinking quite a bit.

On the flop, I think the check is okay. Five ways, it's unlikely to get checked through, so you're not often going to be giving free cards to overs. But if the bet comes from late position, you can then raise and protect your hand a little bit. Since the bet came as early as it did, though, just calling is fine.

The turn is where I have questions. I'm not too worried that the jack has put you behind in the hand, but at this point you're probably committed to showing down, as long as it only costs you at most a bet on each street. Why not try to steal the pot from a better 8?

How to do it is the question. A check-raise may be more convincing than a bet, but it also could get expensive.

I like betting out, although it may be an unpopular line. If you're raised, you can dump it (although I suppose the fact that UTG+1 posted makes it a little more likely that you have some hidden outs against a goofy hand like 62), but it just may get a better 8 to fold.

If you're called, hmmm. I guess I still need to think about that. So maybe this plan kind of sucks after all. I should probably just not post this, but maybe it will garner some discussion.

-McGee

[krimson]

I actually like every street on this hand.

Was your intent to check on the flop and raise a late position bet? Given that the bet comes from a fairly early position there isn't a lot of merit in raising here. We only protect our hand vs 1 player, and even if we are ahead right now there are likely a lot of outs against us. Equity wise we are probably close to even, so I don't think we need to value raise here.

When the turn comes we are possibly beat, but since the same player bets out we have no real reason to believe this card helped him, and nobody raises so our hand is still possibly good. Our situation is still marginal and I don't think raising really has much merit again.

The river changes everything, I think a bet here is necessary. If villian's were drawing or betting ace high then this could easily get checked through. I would bet and call a raise. If someone raises I have a hard time seeing how they don't have a better 8, or even a fullhouse.

[crunchy1]

This was close to my thinking. I was planning to c/r the flop but, when the bet came from the 2nd poster (and everyone called) I decided to call along and see the turn.

I think the turn is the really debateable street. I'm not sure that I like c/r-ing or leading because a raise behind me has a good chance of me making an incorrect play (whether that play is folding/calling/raising).

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
a raise behind me has a good chance of me making an incorrect play (whether that play is folding/calling/raising).


[/ QUOTE ]

what incorrect play are you worried about making? isn't your turn decision based on pot odds?

-McGee

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
This was close to my thinking. I was planning to c/r the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

In a small pot, is this really necessary? I usually reserve this sort of play for a 10-bet pot where leading doesn't protect my hand.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a raise behind me has a good chance of me making an incorrect play (whether that play is folding/calling/raising).


[/ QUOTE ]
what incorrect play are you worried about making? isn't your turn decision based on pot odds?

[/ QUOTE ]
Folding when I should've called; calling when I should've folded; calling when I should've raised.

If I get 3-bet after c/ring the turn I'm going to have correct odds to call to my trip/2-pair outs - but I've now put in 3BBs with the worst hand. One that might only have 3 outs (against a flush draw if player2 calls as well) in which case I'm making an incorrect call based purely on pot odds.

I guess when it came down to it I was so undecided about where I stood that check/calling seemed like the best option. I doubt a c/r was going to fold either player. The worst case would be missing value if they were drawing. OTOH - if I'm behind I'm drawing pretty thin (if not dead) but, with the chance that I've still got the best hand, I thought it was a situation where I could see the river for 1BB and then reevaluate.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This was close to my thinking. I was planning to c/r the flop

[/ QUOTE ]In a small pot, is this really necessary? I usually reserve this sort of play for a 10-bet pot where leading doesn't protect my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think so because there's dead money from the posters and I've got a good chance to clean up a lot of outs if they're holding hands with any 1 card 10 or higher (i.e. Q3, K5 type hands).

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This was close to my thinking. I was planning to c/r the flop

[/ QUOTE ]In a small pot, is this really necessary? I usually reserve this sort of play for a 10-bet pot where leading doesn't protect my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think so because there's dead money from the posters and I've got a good chance to clean up a lot of outs if they're holding hands with any 1 card 10 or higher (i.e. Q3, K5 type hands).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you want them to fold a 3-outer in a 6.5SB pot? Their calls are profitable for you by the FTOP.

Conversely, giving a free card on the off chance that it gets checked around will usually cost you money.

[Aces McGee]

I don't like a turn checkraise nearly as much as just leading the turn for the reasons you give.

Does being raised on the turn face you with any tough decisions?

-McGee

[krimson]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want them to fold a 3-outer in a 6.5SB pot? Their calls are profitable for you by the FTOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although having people call incorrectly is profitable, it is also profitable for people to fold, even if they have weaker hands, due to the fact that it increases our pot equity. Exactly how to calculate which is better in this situation, i have no freaking clue.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Does being raised on the turn face you with any tough decisions?

[/ QUOTE ]
Tough decision - no. I think it's a pretty easy fold against an unknown.

Correct decision - therein lies my issue. I'm not sure what percentage we assign to an unknown bluff-raising the turn here.

[Aces McGee]

hmmm. Seems to me that if it's an easy decision, it has to be correct.

-McGee

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want them to fold a 3-outer in a 6.5SB pot? Their calls are profitable for you by the FTOP.

[/ QUOTE ]
Like Krimson said reducing the number of players increases my chances of winning the pot. I also think that you're correct as well in stating that this line of thinking isn't as valid in a small pot.

I think that leading, check/calling and check/raising are all probably +EV plays on this flop. But clearly one has a greater EV than the other two. I'm not sure which option that is. At the time I thought it was check/raising if the bet came from LP and check/calling as the action played out.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
hmmm. Seems to me that if it's an easy decision, it has to be correct.


[/ QUOTE ]
I understand where you're going but, it's fallacious to say that just because a decision is easy makes it correct.

It may be a default to bet/fold the turn here against an unknown. Sometimes, however, that unknown is going to be bluff/semi-bluff raising. In those cases even though our decision to fold was easy - it is certainly not correct.

[Aces McGee]

I, too, see where you're going. I don't agree entirely, but the differences are subtle enough that it's not worth derailing the thread over. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

-McGee

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I, too, see where you're going. I don't agree entirely, but the differences are subtle enough that it's not worth derailing the thread over.

[/ QUOTE ]
What it comes down to is: What decision (line) yields the largest EV?

I don't know. I'm too lazy to try and calculate. I'm not sure that there's even enough difference for it to matter. I do however, think it's an interesting problem. /images/graemlins/grin.gif