Tips for learning to love the fish?>

Hi all,

Long time lurker here finally decided it's about time I started posting. A quick thanks to you all for the excellent advice and experience(s) you have shared.

Back to my question - I have been playing around 15 months, mainly online in £20 and £30 STT and MTT tourneys (im in the UK)

I have had very good results but there is one thing I do have an issue with - I find it EXTREMELY hard not to get really mad when the fish are outdrawing me yet again just because "it was suited" etc. I would point out that i DO NOT berate the fish, laugh at them or even say a word the majority of the time. All my emotion is kept my side of the screen. I know they ultimately are why I am winning but I really could use some calming techniques.

How do others cope with this - it really pushes my stress levels through the roof for a few minutes even though that one beat barely scratches my bankroll overall. I really think I over react.

Any tips from more experienced players? My wife would be so much happier if my ranting stopped /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Weirdly the times I have played in B+M, I am calm as anything, only one time do I think I dropped an F Bomb /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Thanks in advance

BingoChimp

[4_2_it]

I just think about all the Sklansky Bucks I just made.

Also, sometimes I think "Thank You" when they lay a bad beat on me, because I know that I made the right decision and eventually all their chips will be sitting in front of me.

Not knowing your personality, these tips might be totally lame, but they keep me from smashing my fist through the monitor when my AA gets cracked by 24os. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Komodo]

I think youre underestimating the luck factor in MTT tournaments. I think its pretty normal to get sucked out most of the times.

[Buccaneer]

[ QUOTE ]
Any tips from more experienced players? My wife would be so much happier if my ranting stopped

[/ QUOTE ]

This comment caught my eye. A few months ago I was just mad at the world of poker. This in turn caused me to snap at the wife and kids. After a particularly nasty snap fest where I bit the wifes leg and drew blood I just blurted out "I can be a little bastard when I play this game". She agreed. I then attempted to control my anger at the fish even though I was one and still am one. I then began a slow boil inside and couldn't figure out why I couldn't deal with poker and the people that played it. I posted a few, what I thought were, cleverly disguised bad beat/pitty me post and was called on it. One poster here suggested that I give up poker for a week, not playing, not reading, not posting anything about poker. I did it and used the time to decide if I wanted to continue with this game and how I could approach it so that it was enjoyable.

I decided that I sucked at poker and even though I had had some success I did not deserve continued success. My goal changed from winning, increasing my ego, etc. to just trying to suck less everytime I play. So basicaly I am saying I get my enjoyment from playing well and learning. These are the things I can control so I try to do them well.

My wife, kids and myself are much happier.

[steamboatin]

when you begin to study poker and you are tryig to improve your play, suckouts had a huge impact on your emotions. If you are not very careful and maybe it is an inevitable part of the learning process but you willdevelop a sense of entitlement. "I study, I deserve to win."

Like Clint Eastwood said in "The Unforgiven" "Deserves got nothing to do with it."

Believe it or not, as you continue to learn and understand poker, You have to guard against laughing at the fish. They don't make you angry, you find yourself getting really exited to have the opportunity to play against people that don't have a clue.

Use this as a guage of where you are at in your understanding of poker. When suckouts make you happy, you are getting there. As long as you get angry because a fish suckouts on you, you don't understand poker.

I am going to add a qualifier. If you are playing for the WSOP and you get sucked out on, you are allowed to be a litle upset. If you are getting pissed at $2-4, you have issues.

This feeling stems from the association between winning pots and winning money. Of course, the only for you to collect your money is by raking in a pot; however, this is not the way to earn money. You earn money in this game by being called by worse hands with unfavourable odds to draw. Games with frequent "suckouts" (this is actually a fictional term created by players who feel that they should win every pot they enter) are simply higher variance games. As long as you stick to your game, the pots you take down when you do win will be massive. It's long term earnings with which you should be concerned, not each hand that you play.

EDIT: 99% is not the same as 100%. If you are a 99% favourite, you still should not expect to win. If you are a 100% favourite and manage to lose, then I'd be concerned. And I'd switch cardrooms.

[cincy_kid24]

I have the same problem, only my problem is magnified 100 times b/c I dont keep my mouth shut, at all /images/graemlins/wink.gif
In a way a little berating every once in a while, ON A RARE BASIS (i cant stress that enough), is therapuetic believe it or not. keeping all that frustration bottled up w/o some sort of solution is just turning up your noise filter and it will eventually do you more harm than good.
I remember sitting 3-6 at my local cardroom and picking up AA in second position. I was sitting w/ the worst group of donkeys on the face of the planet, the player on my right was wearing sunglasses...AT 3-6!!! LOL. Of course on the surface i didnt mind b/c there was a great EV b/c these guys were making ridiculous mistakes that were rare even for 3-6.
So anyway, AA sec. position, raise get 2 callers behind and the donk wearing glasses reraises which at the time i thought was perfect b/c i could reraise and drive out the original callers but that didnt work out, i reraised and everybody called behind.
Flop was bad for me, came off K /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, with the 2 hearts and re-re-raised huge pot there was no way i was driving out any kind of weird draw, I didnt like the K /images/graemlins/heart.gif b/c i was thinking right away that the reraiser flopped top set.
on the flop - reraiser bets, i raise and everybody calls. On the turn is the 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, so im done raising, and of course the limp-caller right behind me bets after i check the turn, (by the way I also had the A of hearts so i wasnt going anywhere) everybody calls, river is a blank, limp-caller bets again, i show down, everybody else folds and he shows 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for small two-pair.
Now, I know how to act in a cardroom, I have been playing serious hold em for about 3 years (which i know isnt too long) but even w/ all the knowledge of why i shouldnt berate this guy, there was absolutely no way I could stop myself and I let this guy have it for 2 minutes after the hand.
It was incredibly bad form, I'm the one who ended up looking like an [censored] but it still helped me, it didnt help my play, it didnt help me become a more complete player, it didnt help anything - it was simply anger management.
I'm just not the kind of guy who can take an awful beat like that and say "nice hand" b/c it wasnt a nice hand it was a garbage hand.
But the thing is berating will only make you worse as a player. After a while if you get so worked up about every bad beat you take then you will start to expect it to happen every time and i have found when you are already thinking something is more than likely to happen, it usually does.
If you approach the game itself viewing success as money earned on one hand or any small number of hands then you're going to be a failure more times than your a winner. My definition of "sucess" at poker comes directly from good decisions opposed to bad decision and how I let those decisions affect my bankroll over the course of a year or several years. I think of it as managing luck - my luck and the other player's luck. And that doesnt mean protecting a good hand w/ a timely check raise in order to force out draws, I mean managing luck over your entire poker career, absorbing downswings, upswings, sideswings and everything in between.
Anyway, sorry to ramble. I am getting better w/ the berating, when i do go off (which is not very often anymore actually) I realize that it's for me, and only me, its therapy. I could care less about letting the other guy just how "good" i am and how "bad" he is, in the end nothing changes and it's just wasted energy.
Hope this helps, good luck

[DRKEVDC]

You have to remember that it is the best 5 card hand, not the best 2,3,4 card hand. If you want to improve your HE game try playing Pot Limit Omaha. This is a game where you can have the nuts on the flop and finish third in the hand by the river.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any tips from more experienced players? My wife would be so much happier if my ranting stopped

[/ QUOTE ]

This comment caught my eye.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the replys, some things to think on there.

Buccaneer - My wife gets a little hmm "upset" at the way I swear so badly when I'm ranting at the screen. It's mainly the fact she sees a side of me that she wouldn't under most other circumstances. I'll try what you suggest tho /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Steamboatin - a good point and an interesting way to gauge my progress. I mainly play NL STT which alot of the time means one bad beat is crippling / end of STT. I find this is and the MTT suckouts are where I go off worst.
Trying not to laugh at the fish...now theres a challenge /images/graemlins/smile.gif

BingoChimp

[cincy_kid24]

[ QUOTE ]
So basicaly I am saying I get my enjoyment from playing well and learning. These are the things I can control so I try to do them well.


[/ QUOTE ]
That is an excellent point, something i forgot to mention in my earlier response.
The most simple and basic fact about this game is that it's out of control. You cannot control the cards and you certainly cant control other people, ergo, attempting to reign things in that are out of your control is a wasted exercise
So why get mad about it? For a little more study on this and how the idea of control applies so perfectly to poker I would suggest reading about Caro's Law of Loose Wiring, i'm sure there are some archived posts and the internet is full of information, or so i hear /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[CountDuckula]

I was home sick the past few days, and occupied my time playing a bunch of freerolls (I didn't think my mental state was such that I should risk real money), trying to apply the lessons I've been learning from Harrington on Hold'Em (both volumes). As the suckouts kept coming, I started to find them just plain funny, and started to gain a better understanding of what was going on when they were coming later on in the tourney. Never did place ITM, but I came pretty close at times. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyway, I think when you see enough of them, you start to accept them as part of the game, and try to figure out how to take advantage of them.

On a semi-related topic, I heard a comment from Annie Duke (interview at WPT Aruba the other night) that hit me like a ton of bricks. She said, "If you don't get your hand caught in the cookie jar a few times, you're not playing good poker." I'd been priding myself on my tight play and wondering why I wasn't doing better. I knew intellectually that I was supposed to do some bluffing, but when I heard that, I realized that failing to steal blinds was a huge leak in my game (I wasn't doing it nearly enough), and once the light went on, I started to try out moves. And sometimes, I'd get caught bluffing or semi-bluffing, and lay the bad beat on someone else. I was the proud recipient of a "bad form" comment when I pushed (somewhere in the middle of a tourney) with a flush draw on the flop, got called, and ended up catching a runner-runner straight with my bottom card (IIRC, I was holding J/images/graemlins/spade.gif5/images/graemlins/spade.gif). I didn't enlighten him, but between the probability that he'd fold and the probability that I'd hit my draw (and, presumably, win with it; I realized that if I happened to be up against a higher flush draw, I'd be in trouble), I had good reason to do what I did. I just happened to hit a draw I didn't even see. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Mike

[somapopper]

I really like the fish. A lot of them are really nice if you talk to them, and they are there to gamble, I can get kind of excited for them. I imagine some middle age guy sitting at home on his computer and saying "Well look at that! 10-2 really can win a big pot!"

Excepting when I'm running really badly, I'm even happy when they win a pot off me they had no business being in. I figure it's kinda like standing next to somebody when they hit a big jackpot off a slot machine.

I guess the more I play, the more I really don't care if I win the pot or not. I'm pretty darn sure I'm gonna get mine, and part of my job as a semi-pro is making sure the people who make the game profitable are having a good time. They aren't there because they think I have a God given right to their money. They're there because poker for them is about getting a good run of cards and having some fun. And frankly, that's a perfectly valid reason to play.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
and, presumably, win with it; I realized that if I happened to be up against a higher flush draw, I'd be in trouble

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually being up against a bigger flush draw means Villain has no pair (and obviously doesn't have you dominated), therefore you will probably win if you pair either card. You're still worse off than when your opponent has a pair, but it's not the end of the world.

I didn't read all the posts, sorry if this has already been suggested. I always tell them exactly what I think of them. I don't get mad!! I just act like I am. About half the time they tell me they had good odds or "it was suited"--OR they end up getting mad themselves and rattled. Also, another thing I've started doing is calculating odds on cardplayer.com and you'd be pretty suprised how good 7 4 suited plays against other hands that you would normally deem to be a lock against such a hand. I've found that what I thought to be bad beats were often not that bad at all. (or atleast not as bad as I thought)

Interesting post though. My advice is always try to see what they were thinking so you know how to counteract next time.

1) A 10-1 shot wins one time in eleven, trouble is we subconsciously think it should be zero times!

2) Four 10-1 shots all playing together in the same hand? Equals one 2-1 shot (that one of them gets it). Suddenly its not such a surprise.

[Jeffage]

Not to be a jerk, but I've suffered worse beats than that in Atlantic City at much higher stakes. Never get upset, and always show good form at the table. Berating someone for drawing out is pretty disgraceful...the whole point of the game is beating people who are having fun trying to draw out. The few times they get there are why the games exist. Don't ruin it for them...they make the game worth playing and you don't want them quitting or playing better against you so they don't get embarassed again.

Jeff

[GoCubsGo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Any tips from more experienced players? My wife would be so much happier if my ranting stopped

[/ QUOTE ]

After a particularly nasty snap fest where I bit the wifes leg and drew blood I just blurted out "I can be a little bastard when I play this game".

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I read that correctly? Why do I have a picture of you lying on the ground clutching your wife's leg and foaming at the mouth?

[Kaeser]

I don't even like to think of them as fish. The whole mentality is so demeaning. These are just guys playing poker for different reasons then you are. It may not surprise you that most people don't care about hand selection or pot odds.

If that's so hard to understand then just take Mike Caro's route. Hope for your opponent to win that way you can celebrate when he does and if he loses you get the pot as compensation.

I'm also a longtime lurker.....

I have two suggestions that might help.

1. Play in a real casino for a bit more. While you are playing, make a point of interacting with the other players. While I was never a really heavy steamer, after I played cards with "actual people" my tilt when from every-so-often to virtually-non-existent. The key is to realise the people you are playing with aren't there to make money, they just want to have fun, and I think it's easier to accept this in person. Since you don't steam at B&M, I suspect this is why. Next time when you are on line, remember the silly drunk guy who sucked out on you. Maybe he sucked at poker, but he told some great jokes. It's the same guy, only now he's sitting in his tighty-whiteys at his computer. Have a giggle instead.

2. I recently started using PokerTraker. I love it. There is a feature which tells you over time, your +/- to individual players. After a loose player sucks out on you, if you realise you have made $X over time from him, it might make you feel better. They'll be exceptions of course, but I think over time you'll have tangible data telling you it's okay.

One last detail... I have ran in to quite a few people who get very upset when people play poor starting hands, and then win. It is usually greeted with "How can you play that?! Everyone knows that's awful!" These angry players seem to actually seem to believe someone has broken some carnal rule of poker. I often feel like reminding them that there is no actual rule against this. If you weren't allowed to play 72o, that hand would always automatically be declared dead, but this isn't the case.

[dibbs]

Look at your bankroll and realize it wouldn't be there without them.

[JKratzer]

I made my screenname match my first big purchase made entirely with poker money (in my case my car.) Whenever I take a bad beat I have my name staring right back at me reminding why it's good that guy just called with his 3 outer.

[CountDuckula]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and, presumably, win with it; I realized that if I happened to be up against a higher flush draw, I'd be in trouble

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually being up against a bigger flush draw means Villain has no pair (and obviously doesn't have you dominated), therefore you will probably win if you pair either card. You're still worse off than when your opponent has a pair, but it's not the end of the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

True; as I see it, I was basically trying a semi-bluff. I figured there was a decent chance he'd fold, but if he didn't, I had enough outs to give me a chance. I think the "bad form" remark came from not understanding what I was doing, and he thought I was just being a ridiculous fish. Which, of course, I don't mind at all. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

-Mike

[winky51]

Wow I'm not the only one that screams, yells, punches the desk, and says colorful metaphores at the computer desk.

Everything evens out and with so many hands played over a poker player's life there is really only a 1.5% variance at most in the luck factor.

I play 4 tables limit.

A couple bad beats won't get me angry, just make me sigh.
Three in a row gets some choice words out of my mouth.

Three times in a row at three tables gets choice words and a the PC table suffers a bad beat itself. Thats when I know to quit for an hour. Playing 4 tables does not afford the luxury of me typing something offensive as I have to pay attention to the other tables.

But I'm getting better as time goes on. I was much worse before like some of these stories. I told my wife that she is allowed to shut off the PC from the plug if she feels I am too upset to play.

I feel the more hands I see the more I come to realize that variance is there. So I get used to the swings, like a prisoner in Sadam's prisons. They eventually get used to the beatings.

Also the type of person you are affects how you react to variance. The more emotional you are, the more on tilt you can become. But I feel the advantage of the emotional person is their ability to read others. A calm analytical type is more resistant to bad beats, he knows the numbers, understands the math and swings better. But perhaps can't read his live opponents as well.

Chris Ferguson is a math machine and even he claims he can't read players well.

With Phil H. is all about the player. Even the way he writes his books reflects that "If you got a pair of jacks, the ace hits the board, and the other player bets into you... well if you feel like your ahead, go ahead and raise" I love that line.

I'm curious what is the worst moment that has made someone snap or so close to snapping at a live game?

MINE IS...
When you make a move believing you have the best hand and the bet from the fish smells like a weak hand. Then some shmuck makes a comment at the table like "I bet he's bluffing" which encourages a fish to say "I call" with king high. Now you are certain you have the best hand. The fish then proceeds to draw out on you with the impossible knocking you out of the tournament. You get up from the table bad beat, shocked, and depressed and the fish says "I think I'm getting the hang of this game"... all I wanted to do is pick up a chair and....

[xxx]

Todd Brunson had a nice essay on this in SS2.

To summarize his story, it makes no sense to try to seek out the best game (with the worst players) and then get mad during the game that you are facing bad players.