Checking it down vs. a friend

[AJo Go All In]

Just thought I'd share this story:

so i'm playing in my .5/1 NLHE home game, most stacks about 250-300, and i get AsKs in MP, i raise to 5 and only the BB calls, a good friend of mine.

flop comes JT4 with 1 spade, my friend bets 7 and i call with my overcards/gutshot/backdoor flush.

turn is my money card, Qs, giving me the nuts with the nut flush redraw, and i decide to give a little back. when i see my friend about to bet, i say "don't bet, man." he says, "what, you have ace-king?" and i nod.

he looks a little annoyed, but checks, and i check.

he starts laughing when the river card comes a T, and turns over his JsTs for a rivered full house and takes in the meager ~$25 pot..

if we had played it for real, we surely both would have been all-in on the turn, as he had two pair also with the flush draw!

i guess sometimes it pays off to be nice.. or was this just a bunch of silliness?

[Jimbo]

If I was playing in that game I would be racking up and cashing out after that move.

[bernie]

i wouldve been right behind ya.

it's a pet peeve of mine when players do this on a table. does that mean youd check down with anyone or just your buds? if it's selective, it's a form of cheating/colluding.

there is a player where i play that i will sometimes do this with. why? because 'he' will do it with everyone else when HU. which i state when i agree to check it down.

but what next? selective chopping of the blinds?

but then again, it is a homegame, so to each his own

b

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I think you are better off playing hard against your friends. It keeps other players from being offended by your checking it down, and it helps you become a better player.

[Play Tight]

I have to agree with the other posts above about playing hard vs. friends. I play alot with a female friend (hoping that maybe there is going to be more then freindship eventually.) Here are a couple of hands that have brought me to this conclusion. (not going to list full hands but you'll get the idea.)

1st - Huge pot from the pre & post-flop betting and we get it heads up. She gives me that smirk that tells me she caught the straight on the flop and we check it out. I caught the nut flush on the river, was thinking about mucking (see reason above before commenting,) when she laughed at me and made some comment about taking it easy on me by checking it out so I was kinda goated into showing the winner. Made for a tough ride home and I heard about it for about a week.

2nd - I have suited AK and raise pre-flop its three bet by her and still 5 to see flop. Flop brings AA5, I bet out she raises and everyone else mucks. We check it out and after I said "can you beat my trip A's" She says "Oh, I didn't think you had the Ace, but yeah my boat on the river beats ya."

3rd - Small pot so we checked it out from the flop heads up and she got a straight running over my trips again.

I hated to be the one to bring it up but we have spoke about it and decidedfrom now on its on, no matter the pot size or heads up. Its nothing personal but it is money.

[oddjob]

i don't think this is cheating or colluding.

if i'm heads up against a friend i'll check if they check, and i'll play it hard if they bet into me. but i'll use the first time, as the basis for what i do. if my friend bets into me heads up one hand and then wants to check it down the whole way the next hand, i won't play like that. i'll bet into them every other time if it warrants.

if they want to check it down (and usually we'll state it before we see the flop or whatever) then i'll do it every other time we're headds up.

i kind of leave it up to them. i'm not a cut throat player, and i certainly don't want to take my friend's money.

this doesn't mean we're cheating or colluding.

it doesn't bother me when other people do it either.

[Jimbo]

oddjob wrote "this doesn't mean we're cheating or colluding.

It most certainly does since you also stated "if i'm heads up against a friend i'll check if they check..."

Anytime you treat a friend differently than you will treat a stranger under the same circumstances you are passiviely colluding which in my book is the same as cheating. Color this horse purple if you like but I will avoid your games.

[oddjob]

so if you normally straddle, but if you're to the left of a buddy and you don't straddle, that's collusion... therefore i'm cheating?

when i was in california, i saw a lot of friends scooting a $1 to their buddies when they won a pot. they are cheating?

i'm not making money off of other people by checking heads up with my buddy.

it doesn't have to be a ruthless game. i play for fun. to me it's no fun winning money off of my buddy.

cheating in my mind is trickery, deceit, and fraud to gain money from another.

i would also avoid your game as i normally don't like to play with people who take things way too seriously.

to add to the babe's motto

LGPGHV
look good play good have fun

no offense but it might do some good to lighten up. not everyone's out there to get you.

[Jimbo]

Oddjob, put yourself in the strangers' position. He watches you check down the nuts to your friends then is appalled when you make a gutbuster straight on the river against him and bet. What do you think he would consider this? FUN????????

[oddjob]

i've been a witness to friends checking it down to each other and then betting into me, and it never bothered me.

here's an example of something that happened sat.

i limp in with 87s in mp, but am only against 2 people in front of me.

flop comes 986 rainbow. action goes bet, call, call.

turn brings a 6. bet, raise, call, call

river brings an 8. check bet... i raise and say, i have an 8. the both fold. i show.

we laugh about it. we're having fun. wee.

[bdypdx]

Me too!

I was in a game last November when, during a hand, the player to my right said to his buddy across the table, "Rob, you shouldn't call me on this hand." That was very annoying. The guy wasn't extending the same courtesy to me.

I also had a friend at the table, but jeez, we sure weren't helping each other.

[klrpdx]

>I also had a friend at the table, but jeez, we sure
>weren't helping each other.

No, you certainly weren't! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif If I remember right I was a loser in that session.

And you obviously weren't cutting me any slack last Saturday night when you flopped quad kings and slow played me until I made kings full on the turn...

Of course, I'd have done exactly the same thing (and in fact I have). I wouldn't have it any other way at the poker table.

[HDPM]

Gotta agree with Jimbo here Oddjob. It is a soft form of collusion and is bad for the game. Pushing chips to other players is bad form too. I don't object when I see players tossing $1 chips around, but I don't like it and am happy when the house stops it. It is a "gateway drug" and leads to other forms of soft play which are not harmless. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

If it's no fun to win money off a friend, don't play poker with them. Poker can only be played for money and to be played with integrity the game has to be ruthless within the rules of the game and must be totally individual. So don't involve third parties in the game if you're soft playing - at least announce to the table you two soft play each other. But it should not be allowed at all in public card rooms.

[zuluking]

My friends know that when I'm at the table, I'm after everybody's money. They also know to get the hell out of my way when I check-raise. My poker "acquaintances" know this too. I see players checking down with a friend at Paragon all the time. It just gives me insentive to play better, and take all their damn money.

[bernie]

maybe you dont understand passive collusion and how it hurts the game.

if youd play a hand hard against someone, yet ease up on a bud, you are helping him to where you arent doing the same for the rest. understand? unless youre willing to ease up on everyone else at the table. THAT is "trickery, deceit, and fraud to gain money from another"

even though those 3 words also describe bluffing

"i'm not making money off of other people by checking heads up with my buddy."

youre saving him money selectively where youd make others pay. again, youre helping him. and, in effect, working together to save money with eachother while gaining it from others in the same situation.

if i saw it i would, and have, said "hope i get the same air".

it also really hurts the integrity of the game for strangers playing as HDPM stated.

b

[rharless]

Hi oddjob,

Checking it down vs a friend is a lot (LOT) more common in Colorado than anywhere else I have played. "Just check it down" is rampant in Black Hawk. It's nearly impossible to end up at a table without friends if you play regularly.

I used to always agree to: "oh we're heads up? ok check it down". After a few years and playing in various locales, I am much closer to thinking in the same way as the responses you've seen here. Basically I feel it's unfair for me to softplay my friends while I am charging everyone else the max.

I don't know if I would always label it "cheating" because I think with a LOT of the "check it down" players I know, there is zero ill intent. A lot of it happens because they are headsup and it's pretty much a coin toss (whose kicker is bigger this time?) and they don't want to pay the rake.

On a side note, I am sure you know this, but if you tell the dealer "check the whole way" or something like that, it can affect bad beat qualification. If you tell that to the dealer, then basically you can be required to check. If you hit the bad beat and there's less than $30 in the pot, then you're screwed. (I have never seen this happen but have seen several times where a dealer warned players of the possible impact of "just check it down" or "roll 'em!")

[bernie]

the JP thing happened at the cardroom where i play once. they checked it down. the table went nuts, but there wasnt enough money in the pot. no JP.

i thought it was kinda funny and served em right. the idiots.

b