Help! I get sliced at NL400 - 6max. [Archive]

View Full Version : Help! I get sliced at NL400 - 6max.

vanHelsing

09-23-2005, 05:31 AM

I did really well at 1/2 - 6max for more than 50K hands, so I thought I just had to give 2/4 a try.
After 9K hands I'm about even, that sucks.

The thing is, while I think I'm getting terrible cards, this is about what a fish will think, if he can't beat a game.

I tried to get some info about luck factor from Pokergrader. Here (http://www.pokergrader.com/display.php?a=281283&p=1) you can find my last 5K hands. Does that prove I am cold decked or is this just another bot, knowing nothing about NL?

I'll stop playing 2/4 for now, because I just lost confidence.

Here are six 1-pair hands from the last 2 days, while there might be some bad beats, I'm not posting them for this reason. Just want to know if my game was reasonable, or if I butchered most of them. I know I tend to overplay them sometimes:

My image is usually TAG (22/10/3), raising a lot of hands from LP and usually C-betting flop.

HAND1:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($168)
SB ($440.05)
BB ($948.75)
Hero ($516.40)
MP ($267.35)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
Hero raises to $16, MP calls $16, 1 fold, SB (poster) raises to $58, 1 fold, Hero calls $44, MP folds.
 just call the 3bet in position is standard, right? A chance to get away later? 

Flop: ($140) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets $30, Hero raises to $125, SB raises to $220, Hero calls $331.40 (All-In), SB calls $160.05 (All-In).

Turn: ($976.45) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($976.45) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $976.45

Results in white below: 
SB has Qs Qd (full house, queens full of nines).
Hero has As Ac (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome: SB wins $900.10. Hero wins $76.35. 

HAND2:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($200)
Hero ($659.50)
SB ($338.87)
BB ($117.40)
UTG ($568.05)
MP ($479.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $4. SB posts a blind of $2.
UTG raises to $8, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls $4, Hero raises to $36, 1 fold, BB calls $32, UTG calls $28, CO folds.
 UTG is minraising PF a lot of garbage 

Flop: ($118) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $115, BB folds, UTG calls $115.

Turn: ($348) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.
 Flop call means any piece of the board. Check behind for pot control OK, or am I to PCed to do this? 

River: ($348) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $275, Hero calls $275.

Final Pot: $898

Results in white below: 
UTG has 7d 8d (two pair, eights and sevens).
Hero has Ah Qh (one pair, aces).
Outcome: UTG wins $898. 

HAND3:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($400)
CO ($565.40)
Button ($468.30)
SB ($1389.45)
BB ($400)
UTG ($380.60)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, Hero raises to $16, CO calls $16, Button calls $16, 2 folds.

Flop: ($54) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $50, CO calls $50, Button folds.

Turn: ($154) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $50, Hero calls $334 (All-In), CO calls $284.

River: ($822) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $822

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ah Ad (one pair, aces).
CO has Jd Kd (two pair, kings and jacks).
Outcome: CO wins $822. 

HAND4:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($349.90)
Hero ($412.30)
CO ($569.40)
Button ($460.05)
SB ($242.20)
BB ($386.80)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls $4, Hero raises to $20, 1 fold, Button calls $20, 1 fold, BB calls $16, UTG folds.

Flop: ($66) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB bets $50, Hero calls $50, Button folds.

Turn: ($166) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $160, BB calls $160.

River: ($486) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero calls $182.30 (All-In), BB calls $156.80 (All-In).

 value bet river bad? Villain is a Calling station. 

Final Pot: $825.10

Results in white below: 
BB has 9s 6s (flush, ace high).
Hero has Ah Jh (two pair, aces and jacks).
Outcome: BB wins $799.60. Hero wins $25.50. 

HAND5:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($383.80)
SB ($267)
Hero ($473.50)
UTG ($119.40)
MP ($96.90)
CO ($784)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
3 folds, Button raises to $10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $40, Button calls $30.

Flop: ($82) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $70, Button raises to $250, Hero calls $363.50 (All-In), Button calls $93.80 (All-In).

Turn: ($859.30) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($859.30) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $859.30

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kc Ks (one pair, kings).
Button has 9h Jd (two pair, jacks and nines).
Outcome: Button wins $769.60. Hero wins $89.69. 

HAND6:
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 3 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($895.60)
SB ($339.60)
BB ($1363.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
Hero raises to $16, 1 fold, BB calls $12.

Flop: ($34) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $22, BB raises to $44, Hero calls $22.

Turn: ($122) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($122) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets $100, Hero calls $100.

Final Pot: $322

Results in white below: 
BB has Qh Kh (flush, king high).
Hero has Kc As (one pair, kings).
Outcome: BB wins $322.

jjacky

09-23-2005, 06:47 AM

1. a 9k break even streak is not directly getting sliced.
2. i think the poker grader tool is absolute nonsense.

the story of all these hands is pretty much the same. you got a good pair (top pair or an overapair) beat and get stacked, sometimes involving slow play. generaly spoken i don't think a one pair hand is not worth losing the whole stack unless the pot was very big preflop or you have good reads on your opponent.

vanHelsing

09-23-2005, 07:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. a 9k break even streak is not directly getting sliced.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, overdone, but if you are <ul type="square"> playing full time and striving for 6 PTBB to earn about the same ammount you had at lower levels[/list]those results just feel dramatic.

[ QUOTE ]
generaly spoken i don't think a one pair hand is not worth losing the whole stack unless the pot was very big preflop or you have good reads on your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, most hands I posted where reraised pots.
At this level, my "habbit" of usually C-betting flop atrackts a lot of clowns, who just call flop on air or weak draw, weak pair or whatever, just to take it away at turn.
Other times they try it directly at Flop. No opponent here was a rock, which are rare at 2/4 anyway.

I think, if you make it habbit to fold top 1-pair hands in reraised pots each time you get resistance, you'll get run over at 2/4.

Don't get the impression I am not capable of folding overpairs - I definitely am - I just posted the hands where I wasn't.

jjacky

09-23-2005, 08:05 AM

these results may feel dramatic, but they definitely aren't. lets say you have a SD of 40 PTBB/100 and an EV of 6 PTBB/100. in this case you have a 'chance' of 6.7% to hit a 10k break even streak at any given time. if we asume an EV of 4 PTBB/100 (not directly bad at small to middle stakes NL directly after moving up) you would have a risk of 15.9% to hit an 10k break even streak.
the results are not good, but you are probably a solid winner anyways, given your winrate at 200$ NL.

i wonder how many tables and hours you do play. i don't play full time and play about 20k hands per month. that would translate into a 2 week break even streak. i had those periods (and worse) quite a few times (and i am relatively new to the game) and i don't think that is very worrysome.

discussing the hands, you mentioned that you make continuation bets very often. i wonder how big your c-bets usualy are.

XChamp

09-23-2005, 09:06 AM

Are you implying that you won 12PTBB/100 at 1/2NL for 50k hands? How many tables is that?

That is a pretty sick run.

vanHelsing

09-23-2005, 09:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you implying that you won 12PTBB/100 at 1/2NL for 50k hands? How many tables is that?

That is a pretty sick run.

[/ QUOTE ]
I play up to 4, but usually average like 2-3.
And no, it was less than 12. But as I am quite selective and there just aren't as many good tables at 2/4, I am MTing less tables on average. So I'm forced to make a bit more than 0.5x PTBB/100 to level off.

TheWorstPlayer

09-23-2005, 09:55 AM

It's hard to respond to so many hands in detail. It seems to me like in general, though, you didn't take into account the donk factor sufficiently. Like the guy who called a PSB on Axx flop with mid-pair no kicker. You should know that he is that type of donk and you should be value betting the crap out of top pair good kicker against him on the turn, not checking to control the pot. Or the guy who led with him flush draw, you should probably have raised the flop so that you can easily push the turn. Seems like a weaker ace or a flush draw is a lot more likely than a 5. I think you're doing okay in these hands in general, although I really hate the check/raise on the turn in the KJ hand. But maybe you should focus more attention on developing postflop reads since these are obviously going to be much more important than just "55/12" or whatever as you increase the stakes. Preflop numbers are pretty much good enough at 1/2 but at 2/4 and above I think they become less meaningful. Havent played much 2/4 yet, though.

fuzzbox

09-23-2005, 10:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you implying that you won 12PTBB/100 at 1/2NL for 50k hands? How many tables is that?

That is a pretty sick run.

[/ QUOTE ]
I play up to 4, but usually average like 2-3.
And no, it was less than 12. But as I am quite selective and there just aren't as many good tables at 2/4, I am MTing less tables on average. So I'm forced to make a bit more than 0.5x PTBB/100 to level off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I moved up by adding one 400 table to my mix of tables, then when I felt I was winning, I added a 2nd, and then eventually they all became 400s.

I didnt just go "hmmm - I'll play 400s now", and open 4x400 tables and sit down with 400 at each.

Slow and steady wins the race.

vanHelsing

09-23-2005, 10:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Like the guy who called a PSB on Axx flop with mid-pair no kicker. You should know that he is that type of donk and you should be value betting the crap out of top pair good kicker against him on the turn, not checking to control the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
My idea was that he has seen me giving up on turn several times. So if I bet turn, it's basicly pushing and even this donk will lay down a weak K or whatever I beat, while he might call a river bet unimproved, suspecting a bluff. The donks at 2/4 just aren't as donkish as they are at 1/2, I guess.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're doing okay in these hands in general, although I really hate the check/raise on the turn in the KJ hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I agree. This was my very last hand at 2/4 and I kinda tilt after getting Aces cracked 5 times in a row.
[ QUOTE ]
But maybe you should focus more attention on developing postflop reads since these are obviously going to be much more important than just "55/12"

[/ QUOTE ]
Right, but opponents are just better, bluff better, etc. You take a note "doesn't bluff river in favourable situations" and in the next game he bluffs you off of your TPTK hand with a PSB.
I don't agree with some posters who claim that PP is weak up to 3/6. From 1/2 to 2/4 is the hardest hurdle I had to take so far and this is the 2nd time I failed and will step back again.

I'm sure bad luck was involved, but as mentioned in my OP, that's often just a losers philosophy.
But I'll be back there in Nov. ...

vanHelsing

09-23-2005, 10:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you implying that you won 12PTBB/100 at 1/2NL for 50k hands? How many tables is that?

That is a pretty sick run.

[/ QUOTE ]
I play up to 4, but usually average like 2-3.
And no, it was less than 12. But as I am quite selective and there just aren't as many good tables at 2/4, I am MTing less tables on average. So I'm forced to make a bit more than 0.5x PTBB/100 to level off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I moved up by adding one 400 table to my mix of tables, then when I felt I was winning, I added a 2nd, and then eventually they all became 400s.

I didnt just go "hmmm - I'll play 400s now", and open 4x400 tables and sit down with 400 at each.

Slow and steady wins the race.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but 4 tables was mainly at 1/2. I don't like to have a mix of different limits - confuses me.
I played 2 tables on average and I feel okay about it - lots of notes. 1 table gets me boared and probably playing even worse.