Question for those who think abortion is not immoral [Archive]

DougShrapnel

09-23-2005, 01:42 AM

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For the sake of argument, let's say not much. She does not be using the money for any necessities.

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Lets assume we can put morality on a sliding scale. Selling the aborted fetus so a pedophile can use it, is a magnitude worse than aborting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree with that. I don't see how killing a fetus could be less bad than using it as a sex toy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for a long time I didn't have a opinion on abortion. It seemed like both sides had intelligent points. Plus considering I have a cock I didn't really think I was the best person to ask. But recently I came across an article which states that the number 1 reason why violent crime, including murder droped so drastically was the legalization of abortion. You see, abortion laws mainly only affect the poor. And the babies that where born before roe v wade that would have been aborted where at a huge disadvantage in life. They ended up becoming criminals at a high %. It is just terrible to think of prochoice as a crime prevention technique.

It seems that when we let women decide for themselves whether they are fit to raise a child, they make the correct assessment. So I assumed that the women is aborting the child, because she could not provide for it, or live with the option of adoption. It may not be entirely moral, but selling it to a pedophile is just worse in my opinion.

sexdrugsmoney

09-23-2005, 01:52 AM

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For the sake of argument, let's say not much. She does not be using the money for any necessities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets assume we can put morality on a sliding scale. Selling the aborted fetus so a pedophile can use it, is a magnitude worse than aborting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree with that. I don't see how killing a fetus could be less bad than using it as a sex toy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for a long time I didn't have a opinion on abortion. It seemed like both sides had intelligent points. Plus considering I have a cock I didn't really think I was the best person to ask. But recently I came across an article which states that the number 1 reason why violent crime, including murder droped so drastically was the legalization of abortion. You see, abortion laws mainly only affect the poor. And the babies that where born before roe v wade that would have been aborted where at a huge disadvantage in life. They ended up becoming criminals at a high %. It is just terrible to think of prochoice as a crime prevention technique.

[/ QUOTE ]

The figure I read was something like 70% of boys raised by single mothers have trouble with the law, I can't remember the source or whether it was restricted to mothers raising sons in low socio-economic environments or not, but I've seen my fair share of kids raised the wrong way and what happens to them and pro-choice seems a much better option.

Kids don't ask to be born and too many people have kids unprepared IMHO.

chezlaw

09-23-2005, 01:57 AM

Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything
~Steven D. Levitt, Stephen J. Dubner

I think its in there, don't know if thats the original source.

chez

DougShrapnel

09-23-2005, 02:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything
~Steven D. Levitt, Stephen J. Dubner

[/ QUOTE ] Yup that's it very interesting read. I think sklansky could write something on par with it. If he ever wanted to turn the world upside down on anything other than religion.

slickpoppa

09-23-2005, 02:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For the sake of argument, let's say not much. She does not be using the money for any necessities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets assume we can put morality on a sliding scale. Selling the aborted fetus so a pedophile can use it, is a magnitude worse than aborting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree with that. I don't see how killing a fetus could be less bad than using it as a sex toy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for a long time I didn't have a opinion on abortion. It seemed like both sides had intelligent points. Plus considering I have a cock I didn't really think I was the best person to ask. But recently I came across an article which states that the number 1 reason why violent crime, including murder droped so drastically was the legalization of abortion. You see, abortion laws mainly only affect the poor. And the babies that where born before roe v wade that would have been aborted where at a huge disadvantage in life. They ended up becoming criminals at a high %. It is just terrible to think of prochoice as a crime prevention technique.

It seems that when we let women decide for themselves whether they are fit to raise a child, they make the correct assessment. So I assumed that the women is aborting the child, because she could not provide for it, or live with the option of adoption. It may not be entirely moral, but selling it to a pedophile is just worse in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether or not abortion is moral does not depend on the circumstances of the woman (unless her life is at stake of course). It depends on when human life begins. If you believe that abortion is okay if the woman cannot provide for her child, then wouldn't it also be okay for a woman to kill her 3 month old child because she cannot provide for it? Obviously the difference between the two situations depends on how you define life.

slickpoppa

09-23-2005, 02:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything
~Steven D. Levitt, Stephen J. Dubner

I think its in there, don't know if thats the original source.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they are not the first ones to think of it, but yeah its in there.

DougShrapnel

09-23-2005, 02:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For the sake of argument, let's say not much. She does not be using the money for any necessities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets assume we can put morality on a sliding scale. Selling the aborted fetus so a pedophile can use it, is a magnitude worse than aborting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree with that. I don't see how killing a fetus could be less bad than using it as a sex toy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for a long time I didn't have a opinion on abortion. It seemed like both sides had intelligent points. Plus considering I have a cock I didn't really think I was the best person to ask. But recently I came across an article which states that the number 1 reason why violent crime, including murder droped so drastically was the legalization of abortion. You see, abortion laws mainly only affect the poor. And the babies that where born before roe v wade that would have been aborted where at a huge disadvantage in life. They ended up becoming criminals at a high %. It is just terrible to think of prochoice as a crime prevention technique.

It seems that when we let women decide for themselves whether they are fit to raise a child, they make the correct assessment. So I assumed that the women is aborting the child, because she could not provide for it, or live with the option of adoption. It may not be entirely moral, but selling it to a pedophile is just worse in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether or not abortion is moral does not depend on the circumstances of the woman (unless her life is at stake of course). It depends on when human life begins. If you believe that abortion is okay if the woman cannot provide for her child, then wouldn't it also be okay for a woman to kill her 3 month old child because she cannot provide for it? Obviously the difference between the two situations depends on how you define life.

[/ QUOTE ] Morality is realitive. Lets begin here. agree or disagree? Based off of the aside(Unless her life is at stake) I would think that you agree.

DougShrapnel

09-23-2005, 02:18 AM

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then wouldn't it also be okay for a woman to kill her 3 month old child because she cannot provide for it?

[/ QUOTE ] Actually I think abortion should be legal up to the age of 18.

(Family driving in a car)
Kids- Are we there yet... Are we there yet...Are we there yet

Parent-If you don't cut it out I will abort you.

More effective then I will turn this car around.

slickpoppa

09-23-2005, 02:21 AM

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Morality is realitive. Lets begin here. agree or disagree? Based off of the aside(Unless her life is at stake) I would think that you agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if morality is relative, there is a HUGE difference between a situation in which you must choose between two living things (in the case of the mother's life being in danger) and choosing between life and the well being or happiness of the mother.

DougShrapnel

09-23-2005, 02:22 AM

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Morality is realitive. Lets begin here. agree or disagree? Based off of the aside(Unless her life is at stake) I would think that you agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if morality is relative, there is a HUGE difference between a situation in which you must choose between two living things (in the case of the mother's life being in danger) and choosing between life and the well being or happiness of the mother.

[/ QUOTE ] What about rape?

slickpoppa

09-23-2005, 02:22 AM

Anyway, I still have not heard an explanation as to why using a fetus as a sex toy is worse than killing it.

slickpoppa

09-23-2005, 02:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
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Morality is realitive. Lets begin here. agree or disagree? Based off of the aside(Unless her life is at stake) I would think that you agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if morality is relative, there is a HUGE difference between a situation in which you must choose between two living things (in the case of the mother's life being in danger) and choosing between life and the well being or happiness of the mother.

[/ QUOTE ] What about rape?

[/ QUOTE ]

What about rape? Is it the child's fault that his father is a rapist? The fact that a the child's father is a rapist is irrelevant. If it is okay to kill a fetus because it was the product of rape, then it should also be okay to kill a newborn that was the product of rape.

DougShrapnel

09-23-2005, 02:29 AM

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Anyway, I still have not heard an explanation as to why using a fetus as a sex toy is worse than killing it.

[/ QUOTE ]I was hoping this wouldn't be needed. It just seemed like you put this in soley for shock value. If you seriously want to discuss the joys and morality of having sex with a aborted fetus, we could seriously exmaine it on it's own acord. But lets not go there until we have reached a conclusion or impass on the morality of abortion.

DougShrapnel

09-23-2005, 02:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Morality is realitive. Lets begin here. agree or disagree? Based off of the aside(Unless her life is at stake) I would think that you agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if morality is relative, there is a HUGE difference between a situation in which you must choose between two living things (in the case of the mother's life being in danger) and choosing between life and the well being or happiness of the mother.

[/ QUOTE ] What about rape?

[/ QUOTE ]

What about rape? Is it the child's fault that his father is a rapist? The fact that a the child's father is a rapist is irrelevant. If it is okay to kill a fetus because it was the product of rape, then it should also be okay to kill a newborn that was the product of rape.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is murder ok in times of war?

slickpoppa

09-23-2005, 02:39 AM

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Anyway, I still have not heard an explanation as to why using a fetus as a sex toy is worse than killing it.

[/ QUOTE ]I was hoping this wouldn't be needed. It just seemed like you put this in soley for sock value. If you seriously want to discuss the joys and morality of having sex with a aborted fetus, we could seriously exmaine it on it's own acord. But lets not go there until we have reached a conclusion or impass on the morality of abortion.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are exactly right that the question was for shock value. I asked the question because many people are probably disgusted by the thought of using a fetus as a sex toy, but not necessarily disgusted by the thought of someone killing a fetus. This seems odd to me because it is the opposite to the reaction most people would have if we were talking about an adult. If I asked you whether it was worse for someone to murder a person, or sell a dead body to a necrophiliac, you would have to say that the murder is worse. But why is the answer different for a fetus? Why is selling it for a disgusting purpose worse than killing it?

chezlaw

09-23-2005, 02:42 AM

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You are exactly right that the question was for shock value. I asked the question because many people are probably disgusted by the thought of using a fetus as a sex toy, but not necessarily disgusted by the thought of someone killing a fetus. This seems odd to me because it is the opposite to the reaction most people would have if we were talking about an adult. If I asked you whether it was worse for someone to murder a person, or sell a dead body to a necrophiliac, you would have to say that the murder is worse. But why is the answer different for a fetus? Why is selling it for a disgusting purpose worse than killing it?

[/ QUOTE ]

How odd can that seem to you? You must be aware that those who do not think abortion is immoral do not think the fetus is a person.

chez

slickpoppa

09-23-2005, 02:43 AM

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Is murder ok in times of war?

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Well in times of war the justification for killing someone is usually to save lives in the long run. That is in no way comparable to the suffering that a woman goes through in giving birth to a rape-baby. Death >> suffering

slickpoppa

09-23-2005, 02:45 AM

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You are exactly right that the question was for shock value. I asked the question because many people are probably disgusted by the thought of using a fetus as a sex toy, but not necessarily disgusted by the thought of someone killing a fetus. This seems odd to me because it is the opposite to the reaction most people would have if we were talking about an adult. If I asked you whether it was worse for someone to murder a person, or sell a dead body to a necrophiliac, you would have to say that the murder is worse. But why is the answer different for a fetus? Why is selling it for a disgusting purpose worse than killing it?

[/ QUOTE ]

How odd can that seem to you? You must be aware that those who do not think abortion is immoral do not think the fetus is a person.

chez

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Exactly. And if a fetus is not a person, then why should it be wrong to use it as a sex toy? How is it any different from using a piece of plastic?

DougShrapnel

09-23-2005, 02:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, I still have not heard an explanation as to why using a fetus as a sex toy is worse than killing it.

[/ QUOTE ]I was hoping this wouldn't be needed. It just seemed like you put this in soley for sock value. If you seriously want to discuss the joys and morality of having sex with a aborted fetus, we could seriously exmaine it on it's own acord. But lets not go there until we have reached a conclusion or impass on the morality of abortion.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are exactly right that the question was for shock value. I asked the question because many people are probably disgusted by the thought of using a fetus as a sex toy, but not necessarily disgusted by the thought of someone killing a fetus. This seems odd to me because it is the opposite to the reaction most people would have if we were talking about an adult. If I asked you whether it was worse for someone to murder a person, or sell a dead body to a necrophiliac, you would have to say that the murder is worse. But why is the answer different for a fetus? Why is selling it for a disgusting purpose worse than killing it?

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Well, because I and many don't think life begins at conception, but you already knew that. But I can agree that a 3 month old is too late.

slickpoppa

09-23-2005, 02:53 AM

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Well, because I and many don't think life begins at conception, but you already knew that. But I can agree that a 3 month old is too late.

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So now I'll address the question to you: If a fetus is not a human life, then why is it more wrong to use it as a sex toy than to kill it? How is it any different from using a piece of plastic?

chezlaw

09-23-2005, 02:55 AM

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Exactly. And if a fetus is not a person, then why should it be wrong to use it as a sex toy? How is it any different from using a piece of plastic?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because they dont think the fetus is a person and so do not think abortion is immoral, it doesn't mean that there are no emotional feelings towards the fetus. Unlike a piece of plastic.

chez

DougShrapnel

09-23-2005, 02:58 AM

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So now I'll address the question to you: If a fetus is not a human life, then why is it more wrong to use it as a sex toy than to kill it? How is it any different from using a piece of plastic?

[/ QUOTE ]

lets say an aborted fetus is worth 1/100 of a person. Obviously you are of the opinion that a 1:1 realationship exists. Yet you assume that I am of the position that no ammount of aborted fetuses is worth 1 human.

09-23-2005, 03:15 AM

I think that the pedophile having sex with the fetus is wrong because the fetus was a part of the woman. Whether it was a life or had a soul is irrelevant. If I lost my kidney to some disease and it had to be removed, then I would not want a pedophile to have sex with it. Simply because the kidney was once a part of me, just like the fetus was once a part of the woman.
Your shock value was a little over the top, but it made sense, if you're throwing the fetus in the trash then why not let some guy have sex with it like he would a discarded watermelon.
I view the selling of the fetus to the pedophile to be on par with selling your heart transplant for herbal tea when it could be used to save human lives. But the stem cell debate is a whole different thread.

Jedster

09-23-2005, 03:35 AM

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Would it be immoral for a woman to sell her aborted fetus to a pedophile for use as a sex toy? This is a serious question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting attempt to trap people.

Anyway, the correct answer to your question is that it is wrong to sell anything to a pedophile that will reinforce his or her pedophilia. The reason that you don't want to condone pedophilia in general and to a pedophile specifically should be obvious: it makes it more likely that someone will become a victim of the pedophile.

Of course the fetus would fall under the "anything" category here. And it would be immoral, but for the reasons above, not because there is something that distinguishes selling the pedophile an aborted fetus from selling him or her something like say pornography that depicts incest (even if fictional).

Now another question that might be posed is this: should an aborted fetus be made available to scientists to conduct research that could be used to save lives? I think the answer to that question is clearly yes for reasons that should be so obvious that I need not spell them out here.

goofball

09-23-2005, 04:32 AM

[/ QUOTE ] immoral because it encourages pedophilia[ QUOTE ]

Fine. Kind of dodging the question. Suppose she sells it to a guy who likes to have esex with dead fetuses and only dead fetuses, and there is 0% chance that having sex with dead fetuses will make him want sex wwith anything else

Jedster

09-23-2005, 04:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ] immoral because it encourages pedophilia[ QUOTE ]

Fine. Kind of dodging the question. Suppose she sells it to a guy who likes to have esex with dead fetuses and only dead fetuses, and there is 0% chance that having sex with dead fetuses will make him want sex wwith anything else

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you're getting silly. But presumably since this guy wants to have sex with dead fetuses, if you whet his appetite he'd encourage other women to get abortions, he might even kill pregnant women to satisfy his sick desire, or possibly encourage some women to get pregant so he could have their fetuses after an abortion. Encourage any of those outcomes would be wrong.

The bottom line is that it is better for the fetus to be put to good use and that would be medical research. Any preference against other uses would not be because that particular use was bad in and of itself but because of the implications of that use.

09-23-2005, 07:26 AM

See, Now the original poster's question is getting lost because he used such a horrible shock factor question. So just consider that the aborted fetus is treated as anything else that gets thrown in the trash. Let's say it is getting kicked around and used as a football. Is this ok? I think this is what the original question was asking.

Bigdaddydvo

09-23-2005, 08:15 AM

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The figure I read was something like 70% of boys raised by single mothers have trouble with the law, I can't remember the source or whether it was restricted to mothers raising sons in low socio-economic environments or not, but I've seen my fair share of kids raised the wrong way and what happens to them and pro-choice seems a much better option.

Kids don't ask to be born and too many people have kids unprepared IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll reach WAY out and assume your numbers are correct. An A7 is a 70% underdog to KK before the flop...does that mean the A7 has no chance? Which is more EV+ to the possibly aborted child:

A) 30% chance of avoiding crime/poverty
B) 100% chance of being dead

I think everyone in this forum would rather walk into life taking the worst of it than having no chance at all.

superleeds

09-23-2005, 08:16 AM

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This is a serious question

[/ QUOTE ]

No its not. A serious question would be 'Is it immoral for a women to retain her aborted fetus, much as patients are allowed to bring home their kidney stones?'

slickpoppa

09-23-2005, 10:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So now I'll address the question to you: If a fetus is not a human life, then why is it more wrong to use it as a sex toy than to kill it? How is it any different from using a piece of plastic?

[/ QUOTE ]

lets say an aborted fetus is worth 1/100 of a person. Obviously you are of the opinion that a 1:1 realationship exists. Yet you assume that I am of the position that no ammount of aborted fetuses is worth 1 human.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand and respect the position that a fetus may be worth less than a full human life. That does not change the equation at all. Generally killing something is worse than having sex with the dead body. Let's take a dog for example. It could be said that the life of a family's dog has a fraction of the value of a human life. But even in that case killing the dog would be worse than having sex with the dead body.

bocablkr

09-23-2005, 11:13 AM

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Would it be immoral for a woman to sell her aborted fetus to a pedophile for use as a sex toy? This is a serious question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Serious question???

An aborted fetus is about 2" long in total. How big is your dick????

Zygote

09-23-2005, 12:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For the sake of argument, let's say not much. She does not be using the money for any necessities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets assume we can put morality on a sliding scale. Selling the aborted fetus so a pedophile can use it, is a magnitude worse than aborting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree with that. I don't see how killing a fetus could be less bad than using it as a sex toy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for a long time I didn't have a opinion on abortion. It seemed like both sides had intelligent points. Plus considering I have a cock I didn't really think I was the best person to ask. But recently I came across an article which states that the number 1 reason why violent crime, including murder droped so drastically was the legalization of abortion. You see, abortion laws mainly only affect the poor. And the babies that where born before roe v wade that would have been aborted where at a huge disadvantage in life. They ended up becoming criminals at a high %. It is just terrible to think of prochoice as a crime prevention technique.

It seems that when we let women decide for themselves whether they are fit to raise a child, they make the correct assessment. So I assumed that the women is aborting the child, because she could not provide for it, or live with the option of adoption. It may not be entirely moral, but selling it to a pedophile is just worse in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether or not abortion is moral does not depend on the circumstances of the woman (unless her life is at stake of course). It depends on when human life begins. If you believe that abortion is okay if the woman cannot provide for her child, then wouldn't it also be okay for a woman to kill her 3 month old child because she cannot provide for it? Obviously the difference between the two situations depends on how you define life.

[/ QUOTE ] Morality is realitive. Lets begin here. agree or disagree? Based off of the aside(Unless her life is at stake) I would think that you agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the ethical thing to do? What about the law? Our legal system must be logical and consistent and must define the specific laws. You cannot divert this issue by simply saying morals are relative. In fact, morals should be the least important factor when resolving these issues.

slickpoppa

09-23-2005, 12:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would it be immoral for a woman to sell her aborted fetus to a pedophile for use as a sex toy? This is a serious question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Serious question???

An aborted fetus is about 2" long in total. How big is your dick????

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does every internet disussion have to come down to a dick measuring contest? Anyway, if you dont like the original question, how bout this: Insetad of selling the fetus to a pedophile, the woman sells the fetus to Jeffrey Dahmer so he can eat it.

Jedster

09-23-2005, 01:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would it be immoral for a woman to sell her aborted fetus to a pedophile for use as a sex toy? This is a serious question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Serious question???

An aborted fetus is about 2" long in total. How big is your dick????

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does every internet disussion have to come down to a dick measuring contest? Anyway, if you dont like the original question, how bout this: Insetad of selling the fetus to a pedophile, the woman sells the fetus to Jeffrey Dahmer so he can eat it.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this: two weeks after jeffrey dahmer has sex with a woman named Pam she becomes pregant with his child. She knows he is a serial killer and does not want his child brought into the world. She decides to get an abortion. But Dahmer doesn't want her to get an abortion. He goes to the legislature of her state and asks them to ban abortion which the legislature can do because roe v wade was just overturned. Should the legislature side with jeffrey dahmer or the pregnant woman?

Now let's say the legislature sides with the pregnant woman. Should Jeffrey Dahmer kidnap her until she delivers the child? He'd release her after she delivered.

slickpoppa

09-23-2005, 01:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would it be immoral for a woman to sell her aborted fetus to a pedophile for use as a sex toy? This is a serious question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Serious question???

An aborted fetus is about 2" long in total. How big is your dick????

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does every internet disussion have to come down to a dick measuring contest? Anyway, if you dont like the original question, how bout this: Insetad of selling the fetus to a pedophile, the woman sells the fetus to Jeffrey Dahmer so he can eat it.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this: two weeks after jeffrey dahmer has sex with a woman named Pam she becomes pregant with his child. She knows he is a serial killer and does not want his child brought into the world. She decides to get an abortion. But Dahmer doesn't want her to get an abortion. He goes to the legislature of her state and asks them to ban abortion which the legislature can do because roe v wade was just overturned. Should the legislature side with jeffrey dahmer or the pregnant woman?

Now let's say the legislature sides with the pregnant woman. Should Jeffrey Dahmer kidnap her until she delivers the child? He'd release her after she delivered.

[/ QUOTE ]

This question would be a lot simpler if Dahmer had just stuck in her pooper

bocablkr

09-23-2005, 01:05 PM

Jedster

09-23-2005, 01:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This question would be a lot simpler if Dahmer had just stuck in her pooper

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought you'd say. Glad to see you're pro-choice!

sexdrugsmoney

09-23-2005, 08:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The figure I read was something like 70% of boys raised by single mothers have trouble with the law, I can't remember the source or whether it was restricted to mothers raising sons in low socio-economic environments or not, but I've seen my fair share of kids raised the wrong way and what happens to them and pro-choice seems a much better option.

Kids don't ask to be born and too many people have kids unprepared IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll reach WAY out and assume your numbers are correct. An A7 is a 70% underdog to KK before the flop...does that mean the A7 has no chance? Which is more EV+ to the possibly aborted child:

A) 30% chance of avoiding crime/poverty
B) 100% chance of being dead

I think everyone in this forum would rather walk into life taking the worst of it than having no chance at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet how many of those in this forum who would rather walk into life with the worst of it have even seen the worst of it or the 'neighbour' of the worst of it? One must also think of this imact on society as Doug said regarding abortion and crime prevention. (sure some crimes may be minor which they learn from and turn away from that lifestyle, others are major like drug dealing, armed robbery, rape and murder)

Plus although we know we know the origins of life from our P.O.V, we don't know if this 'soul' that is assumed to exist had consciousness or some other kind of 'life' on another level before being placed into a child. (I'm not going to estimate the placement as that brings the hole abortion thing into play etc)

It's all a very messy issue IMHO, but if you remove the concepts of God and Religion, and look only at the humanitarian aspects and stats I think it favours pro-choice myself.

Cheers,
SDM