When good boats go bad.

[slavic]

Ahh playing the good old Paradise .5/1 i like to punish myself game. Woke up this morning and found a very tastey 58% seeing the flop game and sat down for breakfast.

Ok so in the SB I have J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

2 EP 3 MP limp to me i figured it was a little loose to do but what the heck for a half bet I completed the SB, BB called and we have 7 way action.

Flop [ J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/club.gif ]

Everyone checks to the BB who position bets, I call, MP calls. You know if your going to open with it you might as well play it when it hits. I placed each person on overcards possibly the flush draw, or a weak jack like mine. (as it turns out a raise would have saved me a bit of money)

Turn is [ J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/club.gif ] [ 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ]

Ok 2 pair but that's weak to the flush, lets see if someone has the flush, I bet, call, call.

River [ J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ] [ 5 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif ]

<Insert theme "Loveboat">

I'm flush proof!
All right lets get that last dollar and the win, I bet, Call, raise, I raise, MP folds, EP caps it, I call.

EP lays down 8 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

My dingy was crushed by one of those Heavy Trawlers.

My thoughts are that I probably should have raised or checkraised the flop to identify the larger pair or set, if 3 bet I would have released. On the turn I got no information but a check raise might have won it or made me quit when it was 3 bet.

[Allan]

My thoughts are that I probably should have raised or checkraised the flop to identify the larger pair or set, if 3 bet I would have released. On the turn I got no information but a check raise might have won it or made me quit when it was 3 bet.

Or maybe you could just fold preflop.


Allan

[Bob T.]

First, if you make the smaller boat, it is going to cost you some money. I don't think that you played that bad this hand. Let's take a look.

Preflop. You are getting 13 to 1 on a call with rag rag. If you can win about another 6 small bets after the flop, it is right to try and flop two pair, or trips. This isn't that terrible of a call, but you are maybe wandering into a situation that you could be in a lot of trouble.

Flop. I would either bet out, or try to checkraise here. With a large field, I would check, and plan on checkraising if there was a late position bettor. With an early position bettor, and a CALLER, you are almost certainly drawing to three outs. There are 9 sbs in the pot, do you want to try and hit your 3 outer with those odds. NO! Fold. Also, there are two hearts on the board, and you don't have hearts. That compromises your outs, and gives anyone with hearts redraws against your hand if you do make it. More reasons to fold.

Turn. The good news is that you made two pair, but there is a flush on the board. Why not try and represent the flush. I would check, if the BB bets, and MP raises, then you can fold for free. If he calls, then you can checkraise, and see how they react.

River. Routine. You made a full house, and you are going to at least three bet the river. You lost. That happens.

I think that if you have a hard time getting away from halfway good flops, that a fold preflop is in order. A fold on the flop is definately indicated, and if you can't fold here, you shouldn't have completed.

I think betting on the turn was OK, but if I got this far, I think a checkraise would be better, it might look more like a flush. On the river, you are just going to lose four bets. After the hand, did you notice how the set played his hand. He was probably planning on raising the turn, if a heart didn't come. So in the future, you should watch for call the flop, raise the turn betting pattern from him, and expect that he might have a big hand, and play accordingly.

[slavic]

yea I thought about that too. Pained over the decision to "waist" 1/4BB on non suited junk. Nearly had the timer go off on me, in hind site might have been better if it did.

[AceHigh]

You preflop call is marginal but probably ok.

On the flop you should probably fold. Chances are you are up against a better Jack and only have 3 outs or less. With 3 outs you need about 15:1 and you are only getting 9:1. And it could be worse, if the flush draw is out there you only have 2 outs and if the BB has top 2 pair you are drawing almost dead.

[Louie Landale]

I'm not much of a fan of "raising to get information" unless it really does some good, and am certainly no fan of trying to analyze a hand looking backwards from the show-down.

Once you check the flop and everyone checks to the button who bets, it is rarely if ever correct to call with a pair. If your pair is good enough to call its almost always much better to raise to drive out those behind you.

There are a LOT more hands than "overcards, flush draws, or top pair" that loose $.5/1 players can play. Kh9c for example, also certainly a pair of 8s or 2s.

On the turn, again you "bet to see if someone has the flush". This info doesn't do much good. Its only good if you will have to call such a person down marginally, AND they will certainly NOT raise without the flush allowing you to save only part of one BB. Anyway, betting is probably best since the marginal button hand is likely to check.

On the river [1] he probably has a full house and YOU have a small full house, and [2] you want MP to overcall. This is a classic case of "going for the overcall", and failing to do so cost quite a bit.

- Louie

[Don Quixote]

Louie, good informative post. It enforces what I had come to think of as some of my shortcomings, i.e., "raising for information." So often I dont know what information I got. Your second point about working backwards makes me feel better too. I try to remember raising, etc. that occured during the hand in making decisions; but if I have to work backwards, I would probably time out.

I saved your best point for last. I have read about all the overcalls but never consciously used it. It can be costly for two reasons. If your little boat is beaten, you will pay when you lead; and at other times, you will miss the overcall bet if you have the best hand. Have I read this correctly?

Thanks again! You and many others on this forum make me exercise the little grey cells. I may not use some of these little gems right away, but one day they will just come to me out of the blue during play.

Don Quixote

[hutz]

I think you need to re-read your hand history. I don't remember every little detail, and this hand is more than 100 hands ago so I can't get the history, but I was in late position (and I think my mighty limp bought me the button).

I bet my set when it was checked to me on the flop and I called the turn because your open bet made me read you as having quite possibly made a low flush that didn't want to give a free card (yes, I know that was weak). You were behind the whole way but didn't know it.

Limping with a big piece of cheese like J5o will get you sucked into unpleasant situations more often than one should like. There is nothing you could have done that would have made me lay down that hand, so don't beat yourself up (unless it relates to your pre-flop call).

P.S. This is the first time I've played .50/$1 in something like eight months. When online, I usually play $2/4, $3/6, or no limit but was just trying to work off my 100-hands-before-cashout requirement as quickly as possible. That said, when someone at that level raised an open bettor and an overcaller on a paired board, you were probably better served simply calling and hoping for the overcall from the other player.

[bernie]

fold preflop. the hand sucks

c/r the flop

but the EP played his set pretty bad too. he lost alot of bets. great to have him in the game.

b

[slavic]

I see my miss, the button came to you because of your bet on the flop. You started +2 gained a seat on your limp gained one on the flop bet, clear sign for me to bail, I just missed it.

Thanks for the lesson /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif

[slavic]

I don't know I made up plenty of missed bets for him /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[bernie]

not sure why some think your call was even marginal. J5o is a crap hand.

im wondering what you were hoping to flop? if you hit a J, you can easily be outkicked, and any draw is a weak draw. 2 pair is about 48-1...good luck collecting that and winning if someone gives you that much action.

does this help with why, for even 1/2 a bet it's a fold? suited id call, no problem, but not this cheese.

seems youre looking at the value of the chips instead of the form of a unit. since it was only a .25, why not call this in MP also?

not trying to bust balls, but if you dont have discipline, (unless ya did it for sh*ts and giggles which is fun to do at times), on the small tables, youll let monetary meaning come into play in other limits too. which will come affect you in different ways. something to watch for. you explained it as a monetary reason.

b

[Fitz]

I don't mean to be overly harsh, but I believe you got exactly what you deserved for playing that hand in the first place. It is the idea of "only half a bet" that gets so many players in trouble. A negative EV play is a negative EV play, and J5o is has a negative EV. Punish lesser players with good hands; don't start making reaches like this. They will only get you into trouble.

Good luck,

[hutz]

<ahem> Thanks for your comments, bernie, but I was the player with the set and don't completely agree with your view of my play. I limped after three other uber-loose limpers in MP with 88 (i.e., very low likelihood of buying the button with a raise), open bet my set on the flop when it was checked to me in second-to-last position, called when the flush card hit and the SB open bet into at least two other players out of the blue on the turn, and then raised/capped the river when my full house hit. How on Earth did I miss any more than possibly one bet on the turn and how can you say I played "pretty bad"? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because of the way the facts were misstated in the original post, but if you still believe the hand was misplayed, I'm curious to receive a fuller explanation of how you believe it could have been played more optimally.

[Bob T.]

There is a huge difference between how you describe the play of the hand, and how the original poster describes it. I think that bernie was taking issue with your smooth call on the flop, which didn't occur. I didn't like that play either, but since you didn't make it, don't worry about it.

[bernie]

i based my reply on the EP having the 88, as in the post. i think youd agree that if you were in that spot, with that hand, it wouldve been a misplay.

but since the hand is totally screwed up now, and no one knows who was where or what the action is, i cant comment on how you actually played the hand.

completely blown thread...

b

[bernie]

actually if i had the set in EP, id have bet out hoping to get raised.

b

[Louie Landale]

I guess I didn't say the "backwards" thing right. I meant it hurts analsys if you know the exact outcome. "Should I raise?" gets quite different answers when you know, for example, that are going to lose the showdown.

As for remembering what's happened so far: its tough at first. Try keeping track of the player who was the aggressor on each round. Basically, hands play MUCH differently if there has been two aggressors in the pot rather than just one.

In the "going for the overcall" example: if you 3-bet you are very likely going to lose the caller and are very likely to get a call from the 2-bettor. You are likely to get 4-bet if you are beat. You are basically risking 2 additional bets (the 3rd and 4th) for very little gain. Its a no-brainer call if you KNOW the callers will call again. The ballance act comes in calculating your chances of being beat plus the chances of getting raised if beat times two; and comparing that to the chances the caller does NOT make the overcall. Since players will typically call one more time going for the over-call is pretty routine.

"Going for the overcall" is a well documented (with a little research, you know where), relatively easy concept to grasp (with a little work), easy to recognize (with a little practice), often makes a HUGE difference in the EV of a hand, and comes up very often in loose games (with multi-player show-downs). Its well worth investigating for beginners.

This situation, keep in mind, is completely different if its NOT the last betting round. Then you generally RAISE because you WANT the caller to fold (or at least call a double bet).

- Louie