3 limpers, a miniraise, a caller and I have AKo on the button

[TheNoodleMan]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t925)
BB (t445)
UTG (t1120)
UTG+1 (t425)
MP1 (t710)
MP2 (t2230)
MP3 (t810)
CO (t560)
Hero (t775)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t60</font>, CO calls t60, <font color="#666666"> <font color="red"> HERO???</font>

[downtown]

I push. t255 in the pot ~1/3 of your stack. You have tons of FE &amp; don't mind taking it down right now. Not to mention you have a good chance to win even if you get called.

Edit: oops forgot the blinds in the pot size... makes it an even easier push!

[beetyjoose]

Hero raises to 215. What was the buy-in?

[45suited]

I instantly push. This is the kind of crap that AK was made for.

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
I instantly push. This is the kind of crap that AK was made for.

[/ QUOTE ]

[kong98]

I would call here. You've got position and a good hand.

I don't like to reraise with AK in the early levels. Too much chance of a push back at you, and I don't want to take coin-flips in the early levels.

[TheNoodleMan]

[ QUOTE ]
What was the buy-in?

[/ QUOTE ]
30+3

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my. Not good.

(Edited because I did not realize there was one caller of the raise).

Assuming no info yet, I would probably raise to 120 (60 more to go). This would likely make the limpers fold because of them being sandwiched between you and the raiser and caller, thus narrowing it down to a manageable 3 handed flop. It further will help you define your hand against the raiser and caller. If they both just call, it is unlikely they have aa or kk, and you can put them on a broad range of solid drawing hands (ak, aq, ajs, etc) or middle pockets). If you hit your flop, you can then bet or raise with confidence. However, if one comes over the top, since you only invested 120, you can easily let it go.

I might just call if the two limpers are calling stations, however.

[kong98]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my. Not good.

[/ QUOTE ]

This hurts me because you post good stuff. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Can you please educate me here?

I usually play the 10+1 and if you push here, you're often getting 1 or 2 callers. (Often could be confirmation bias on my part though?)

If I get called, I figure its a coin-flip and I try not to take coin-flips in the early stages of the tourny. You can usually find better places to get your money in later can't you?

Are we pushing because everyone looks fairly weak so we don't expect a call, and if we do get called, we're only a real dog to AA and KK?

Thanks,
Kent

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my. Not good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I rarely speak in absolutes, but anything other than a push here is a definitely a major leak in a $33 SNG.

[45suited]

I should explain. You have significant FE and if called, you have a very strong hand. There's easily enough in the pot to push here, IMO. At the least, I'd put in a big raise. My style would be just to push.

Think about just calling. Yes, you have position. But surely you know that EVERYONE in the hand will also call. So, 'essentially' you're playing at least SIX handed in an unraised pot. I call it basically unraised because the mini-raise after limpers does NOTHING to define anyone's hand. You could hit TP and still easily lose to all sorts of random connected cards or whatever.

The overlay here is huge. You have great FE. Pushing and adding 255 to your stack would be great. If you're called, you're in decent shape too.

Why not just double, or maybe triple the raise? Why put your whole tourney life at stake here against a possible coin flip? It is very likely that either the raiser or caller has pockets. You are risking your whole stack if u get called in such a situation. I agree you probably have at least a 50% chance of taking it down pre, but if you take it down pre, you only win 225. Is that worth risking your tourney life without a monster holding? Why not bet an amount to define your hand, and hopefully hit a flop, then get your chips in when you really do have a great hand?

[beetyjoose]

[ QUOTE ]
I would probably raise to 120 (60 more to go). This would likely make the limpers fold because of them being sandwiched between you and the raiser and caller

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? 60 more would not make anyone fold; even it is 90 more for the limpers.

Especially if they are limping with suited connectors our small PP they would be stupid to fold with a pot being built up so large preflop. You definetly want to atleast try to isolate in this position.

[45suited]

Nuance doesn't work well in 800 chip tournaments.

Often, the simplest solution is the best solution.

I know you might feel 'safer' with your approach, but it really isn't, IMO. There is enough of an overlay that I will happily race if somebody with 55 has the stones to call me. But I doubt they will. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

60 more could easily force a fold of the two limpers IMO. A smart player would realize that because he is sandwiched between you and the other raiser/caller, this is a hand, even with small pockets, he should just let go. At any rate, at least one of the limpers folds, if not both. And you have made a hand defining raise. I say a raise of 60 more is fine.

I am not saying your approach is clearly incorrect. I am just saying what I believe the BEST way to play it is. Good poker involves always having avenues of escape for as long as possible. You put in 120, you still got plenty of chips left if someone comes over your top. Why not give yourself a chance to win alot of chips on this hand, but have an avenue of escape if someone has you dominated?

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
60 more could easily force a fold of the two limpers IMO. A smart player would realize that because he is sandwiched between you and the other raiser/caller, this is a hand, even with small pockets, he should just let go. At any rate, at least one of the limpers folds, if not both. And you have made a hand defining raise. I say a raise of 60 more is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, a raise of 60 is terrible and is making me puke onto my nice shirt! You're giving all kinds of hands odds to draw. You're going to get more than 1 caller. You're going to be totally lost in the hand even when you hit an A or K. You're passing on a huge opportunity to pick up chips equal to 1/3 of your stack. I am repeating myself from my earlier post. Read 45Suited's post too, and ilya's post below this one.

[ilya]

Folding is terrible cos there's no reason to believe you're badly beat &amp; besides you have FE; calling is terrible cos even when you hit your TPTK isn't gonna be good a lot of the time with this many people in the pot; re-raising less than all-in is pointless as it commits you to the pot anyway;

therefore, push.

[Sabrazack]

Whaddyaknow, heres a push i would put my money on any day /images/graemlins/laugh.gif No doubt.

Because of the poor play online in smaller buy in SNGs, you might be right. I play alot of higher buy in SNGs along with lower ones, so maybe I am more accustomed to solid play. Good players would not automatically call 90 more with 33 through 99 when sandwiched inbetween you and two other players who have shown strength. They would more than likely would fold, assuming there is a very good chance that they are going to be facing additional raises. There is a point of diminishing returns to preflop calling, no matter what pot odds you are getting. For example, if the raiser and caller both went over the top, would it then be correct for the two limpers to call if they both had pockets? I think that sandwich effect is something solid players are aware of, and think often they fold to the extra 90. I know I would let my mid pockets go in that situation.

[TheNoodleMan]

expecting this many limpers to understand the sandwich effect at a 33 is foolish, in my experience.

Often you might be right though. Whether they understand it or not, it could bite them, however. But you point is well taken -- if they do not understand that fundamental poker requires them to fold their marginal hand, then a reraise of 60 would not make sense. I suppose then to some degree it would depend if you had notes on them or some info by that point, etc.

[EnderFFX]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my. Not good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I rarely speak in absolutes, but anything other than a push here is a definitely a major leak in a $33 SNG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leak plugged, thank you downtown and 45suited.

[lacky]

just to clarify, with the extra 200+ chips in the pot that are dead (because the people that put them in have folded and can no longer win the hand) even if it is a coin flip, It's a 50/50 where you can win 200ish more than you can lose. Those are situations you look for, not aviod.

Steve

[TheNoodleMan]

I think we have covered this hand, so I'm going to post the rest of the hand history.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t925)
BB (t445)
UTG (t1120)
UTG+1 (t425)
MP1 (t710)
MP2 (t2230)
MP3 (t810)
CO (t560)
Hero (t775)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t60</font>, CO calls t60, <font color="#666666"> <font color="red"> Hero Pushes all in </font> 3 folds UTG+1 calls</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds.

Flop: (t1425) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t1425) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t1425) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t1425

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG+1 has 6d 7d (high card, king).
Hero has As Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins t1425. </font>

[lacky]

you need to rethink this. unless you have a very good reason to think someone is holding AA or KK, AK is a hand you really want to be all in with here. You want to see all 5 cards, and you don't want to fold to a bet on the flop by AQ that missed also. Your getting good odds, it's a clear push.

Steve

[the_joker]

Wow, all the more reason to push when people like this will call.