$33 - blind v blind 2nd hand [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

schwza

09-22-2005, 12:10 PM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t785)
CO (t735)
Button (t900)
SB (t735)
Hero (t875)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t785)
MP2 (t785)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
8 folds, SB raises to t35, Hero calls t20.

Flop: (t70) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets t70, hero?

downtown

09-22-2005, 12:17 PM

I would call.

1) I think your hand is ahead enough of the time to make folding at this point bad.
2) You don't hate to see a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the turn, as it gives you more outs in case you are behind
3) You're in position on the turn and get to see how SB acts first - I could fold to a big turn bet after calling the flop knowing I'm behind enough of the time to make it right.

45suited

09-22-2005, 12:22 PM

This is one spot where I would raise to 200 and define my hand. Any special reason why you shouldn't think you're ahead?

Raiser

09-22-2005, 12:27 PM

I like calling for information here. This looks like a WAWB spot, so getting to showdown as cheaply as possible looks good to me. If he makes another good sized bet on the turn, then you can re-evaluate.

downtown

09-22-2005, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is one spot where I would raise to 200 and define my hand. Any special reason why you shouldn't think you're ahead?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't do this mainly because of pot-size control reasons. I have a difficult time in these SB v BB situations though when the blinds are small and I flop a strong but not invincible hand, so I'm interested in hearing others' responses.

45suited

09-22-2005, 12:32 PM

I think you'd be surprised at the number of times that this isn't a WAWB spot, but rather a raise from the SB and auto bet any flop spot.

45suited

09-22-2005, 12:34 PM

I think you'd be surprised at the number of times that this isn't a WAWB spot, but rather a raise from the SB and auto bet any flop spot.

Which I guess would mean you'd be way ahead, but if I'm playing this hand, I might as well raise while I'm likely ahead. (But draws on board.) Why give SB so much credit for being ahead here? It was folded to him, he raised, took a shot on the flop. I'd pop him back. Ace with a T kicker seems good enough here. If he pushes, then I've got a decision to make.

schwza

09-22-2005, 12:53 PM

i called, although i agree with 45s that the odds are very good i'm ahead. i disagree that he's likely to have outs though. yes, he may have a flush draw, but only ~1/20 hands has two diamonds, and that's less because we see 3 of them, and one is the A. it goes up a little because he raised pre-flop and bet this flop, but still: it's not likely.

sometimes he'll have 7x for 5 outs, but what the hell, i'm a gamblin' man.

i don't want to lose him right here with a raise, so i just called.

this is the rest of the hand. comments on all streets still appreciated.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t785)
CO (t735)
Button (t900)
SB (t735)
Hero (t875)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t785)
MP2 (t785)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
8 folds, SB raises to t35, Hero calls t20.

Flop: (t70) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets t70, Hero calls t70.

Turn: (t210) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t120, SB calls t120.

River: (t450) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t650 (All-In),

villain has 510 left.

Dr_Jeckyl_00

09-22-2005, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like calling for information here. This looks like a WAWB spot, so getting to showdown as cheaply as possible looks good to me. If he makes another good sized bet on the turn, then you can re-evaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not know you get information when you call!?!?

What is WAWB?

OP has position, take advantage of it. Are you planning to call the turn if SB bets? If so, you might as well raise here. If you plan to fold to a turn bet, you could be throwing away the best hand. SB min raised pf, and bet flop. He could have an ace. But if you raise the flop it will help define how much he likes his hand. If you raise and he has tpwk, he may check turn-river... after which you too should check. If he shows aggression after your raise... check/call as long as it is cheap to do so, otherwise give the hand up.

schwza

09-22-2005, 01:03 PM

WAWB is way ahead or way behind. a better example would be something like KK on a board of A73r.

Dr_Jeckyl_00

09-22-2005, 01:06 PM

I like the way you played the turn-river. I especially like the river push... looks like a steal! I think you're lucky that you hit 2 pair on turn. I don't like the flop call so much b/c you don't know what you're up against!

downtown

09-22-2005, 01:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
8 folds, SB raises to t35, Hero calls t20.

Flop: (t70) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets t70, Hero calls t70.

Turn: (t210) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t120, SB calls t120.

River: (t450) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t650 (All-In),

villain has 510 left.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks good to me. Again though, I'm in the non-raising crowd on the flop. Turn is good, but I might have made it just a little more to charge the flush draw a bit extra, unlikely though it is. I am split between making a small value bet of t120 or so on the river and a push. I would likely make it t120, but I like a push too. I'm worried we're not going to get value out of a T, 3 or & this way, but as menioned above, it could be interpreted as a missed draw or a bluff as well.

45suited

09-22-2005, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Again though, I'm in the non-raising crowd on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I typically lean toward not raising as much as alot of people on the flop. Pot control, inducing bluffs (so many people love to keep firing at you), etc.

I was trying to come up with some reasons why I like raising here. Here goes:

1) Especially early in SNGs, I like to take some pots, get a decent stack, get in and get out of hands. I don't really want to play around here and let him get free cards.

2) More important reason: I like to pop the SB in the mouth in spots like this, to send the message that he can't be raising and auto betting me the whole damn game. We've all seen that guy: He probably notices that we fold alot to PF raises, so he keeps this crap up the entire game.

I'm of the 'slap him on the nose with the newspaper and make him whimper into the corner' crowd when I get a chance against the SB.

Slim Pickens

09-22-2005, 01:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t785)
CO (t735)
Button (t900)
SB (t735)
Hero (t875)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t785)
MP2 (t785)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
8 folds, SB raises to t35, Hero calls t20.

Flop: (t70) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets t70, Hero calls t70.

Turn: (t210) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t120, SB calls t120.

River: (t450) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t650 (All-In),

villain has 510 left.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well played. I'm betting exactly 350 on the river though. There's no reason to give him an excuse to fold his A4.

kevstreet

09-22-2005, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SB checks, Hero bets t650 (All-In),

[/ QUOTE ]

I normally make a value bet in the 150 range, which seems to get insta-called regularly. In lieu of this, I always wonder had I pushed (apparent steal attempt) would I get called just the same and I'm missing out on more chips.

I love when the turn hits me like that. Makes all your decisions much easier.

bennies

09-22-2005, 01:59 PM

I know you cold called but on the flop I would have raised, probably a minraise to induce a bluff reraise right away. If he fell for it I would push (or call his push).

Questions:

Do you agree Hero is ahead often enough to play for his entire stack on the flop?

If yes, would it be the same in a 1000 chip game(55$)? (Personally, with 1000 chips, I would be more hesitant and probably play it like you did.)

Dr_Jeckyl_00

09-22-2005, 02:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SB checks, Hero bets t650 (All-In),

[/ QUOTE ]

I normally make a value bet in the 150 range, which seems to get insta-called regularly. In lieu of this, I always wonder had I pushed (apparent steal attempt) would I get called just the same and I'm missing out on more chips.

I love when the turn hits me like that. Makes all your decisions much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

See Lorinda's post. She has a nice post about pushing the river and getting called.

Lorinda's post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3441762&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

Raiser

09-22-2005, 02:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like calling for information here. This looks like a WAWB spot, so getting to showdown as cheaply as possible looks good to me. If he makes another good sized bet on the turn, then you can re-evaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not know you get information when you call!?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain raised preflop. He will almost certainly bet any flop. Calling the flop is a good way to see if he really likes his hand and it's a cheap way. If he bets the turn again then we can re-evaluate. That's all I meant by calling for information.

Raiser

09-22-2005, 02:10 PM

I like the whole hand. Nice job.

schwza

09-22-2005, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like calling for information here. This looks like a WAWB spot, so getting to showdown as cheaply as possible looks good to me. If he makes another good sized bet on the turn, then you can re-evaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not know you get information when you call!?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain raised preflop. He will almost certainly bet any flop. Calling the flop is a good way to see if he really likes his hand and it's a cheap way. If he bets the turn again then we can re-evaluate. That's all I meant by calling for information.

[/ QUOTE ]

right, but what do you do about it? it can be a value bet from a4 just as easily as from AK at this point. i called not knowing what i was going to do if villain bet a brick (i know, i know - bad schwza), but i think it's going to be very easy for me to make a FTOP mistake by folding or not on the turn.

schwza

09-22-2005, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like the whole hand. Nice job.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks. the turn card made it a lot easier /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dr_Jeckyl_00

09-22-2005, 02:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like calling for information here. This looks like a WAWB spot, so getting to showdown as cheaply as possible looks good to me. If he makes another good sized bet on the turn, then you can re-evaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not know you get information when you call!?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain raised preflop. He will almost certainly bet any flop. Calling the flop is a good way to see if he really likes his hand and it's a cheap way. If he bets the turn again then we can re-evaluate. That's all I meant by calling for information.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so reevaluate... assume he bets turn t150 or so... now what's your line?

Raiser

09-22-2005, 02:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like calling for information here. This looks like a WAWB spot, so getting to showdown as cheaply as possible looks good to me. If he makes another good sized bet on the turn, then you can re-evaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not know you get information when you call!?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain raised preflop. He will almost certainly bet any flop. Calling the flop is a good way to see if he really likes his hand and it's a cheap way. If he bets the turn again then we can re-evaluate. That's all I meant by calling for information.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so reevaluate... assume he bets turn t150 or so... now what's your line?

[/ QUOTE ]

On this turn? Push.
On any other turn with a diamond? Push.
On a turn with an A? Push.
On any other turn where I completely whiffed? I'd probably fold this early in the tournament. That's probably too weak, but top pair T kicker isn't so great that I'm willing to go to the felt with it.

I really think calling the flop and seeing the turn is just as good as raising, from an information gathering perspective. But it's much cheaper and much safer. Say he pushes over the top of your flop raise. So now there is ~1050 in the pot and you have to call ~450. That's a tough decision. If you just call and he comes out strong again on the turn, you've gained the same amount of information as raising the flop would get you, but it comes much cheaper.

Is this faulty thinking? I'm willing to be persuaded.

Dr_Jeckyl_00

09-22-2005, 02:30 PM

calling is safe and cheap, I agree. But many people c-bet flop-river unimproved... so I am not sure that you're getting any valuable info by checking flop. It is not necessarily cheap if you keep calling. If you push turn (not this turn)... and he calls you're most likely beat... I don't know. Regardless, turn was nice to OP.

Raiser

09-22-2005, 02:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
calling is safe and cheap, I agree. But many people c-bet flop-river unimproved... so I am not sure that you're getting any valuable info by checking flop. It is not necessarily cheap if you keep calling. If you push turn (not this turn)... and he calls you're most likely beat... I don't know. Regardless, turn was nice to OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take safe and cheap this early on and save my chip-chucking for later on. Maybe this is just a matter of style /images/graemlins/smile.gif

ilya

09-22-2005, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is one spot where I would raise to 200 and define my hand. Any special reason why you shouldn't think you're ahead?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's cheaper to let SB define your hand by calling and seeing how he reacts to the turn. He's probably not gonna make another big bet if he has something like TT. If he is weak on the turn I think you can be pretty sure you're good. Then you can either take it down or check behind and make some money when he calls you on the river.

schwza

09-22-2005, 03:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is one spot where I would raise to 200 and define my hand. Any special reason why you shouldn't think you're ahead?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's cheaper to let SB define your hand by calling and seeing how he reacts to the turn. He's probably not gonna make another big bet if he has something like TT. If he is weak on the turn I think you can be pretty sure you're good. Then you can either take it down or check behind and make some money when he calls you on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

so do you fold if villain makes a normal bet?

Slim Pickens

09-22-2005, 03:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SB checks, Hero bets t650 (All-In),

[/ QUOTE ]

I normally make a value bet in the 150 range, which seems to get insta-called regularly. In lieu of this, I always wonder had I pushed (apparent steal attempt) would I get called just the same and I'm missing out on more chips.

I love when the turn hits me like that. Makes all your decisions much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

See Lorinda's post. She has a nice post about pushing the river and getting called.

Lorinda's post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3441762&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

I've had little luck pushing and getting called in these sorts of situations. Donks love to call, but they won't call if they know they should fold and you give them an excuse to fold. I really think the proper river bet is the maximum that still makes it look to your opponent as though he's not effectively calling for all his chips. His range must get wider, and I think it gets wide enough that the extra number of hands that call here for 350 (leaving him 160) are worth the slight drop in the value when the bet is called. Also, most of the hands that are calling a push here will raise those last 160 anyway.

downtown

09-22-2005, 03:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I've had little luck pushing and getting called in these sorts of situations. Donks love to call, but they won't call if they know they should fold and you give them an excuse to fold. I really think the proper river bet is the maximum that still makes it look to your opponent as though he's not effectively calling for all his chips. His range must get wider, and I think it gets wide enough that the extra number of hands that call here for 350 (leaving him 160) are worth the slight drop in the value when the bet is called. Also, most of the hands that are calling a push here will raise those last 160 anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also feel like I don't get called enough with the push in this spot, and though I won't quote it too often, in HOH (or HOH2???) Harrington opines that 1/2 of your opponents remaining chips represents a psychological barrier. I think this would tend to apply in this situation, and it's a reason I like a value bet of <1/2 pot if you're not going to push.

Slim Pickens

09-22-2005, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I also feel like I don't get called enough with the push in this spot, and though I won't quote it too often, in HOH (or HOH2???) Harrington opines that 1/2 of your opponents remaining chips represents a psychological barrier. I think this would tend to apply in this situation, and it's a reason I like a value bet of <1/2 pot if you're not going to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

That psychological barrier has got to be different for online SnG's. Your opponents don't have physical chips, just buttons on the screen with numbers on them. I took some time to study this exact type of situation: where I'm probably ahead and I think my opponent will call with a lot of lesser hands. It turned out I was underestimating the amount my opponents would call on the river by quite a bit. 150 is too little for a value bet. I'd rather push than bet 150, but 350 is even better.

schwza

09-22-2005, 04:00 PM

the question is will villain call 510 with a losing hand 69% of the time he'll call 350 (350/510 = 69%)? it needs to be a little more, because sometimes villain will throw in the last 350 with a loser.

my inclination is that the only time the extra 160 matters is if villain holds Ax, which is his most likely payoff hand. but i think a decent villain will not call either with a medicore Ax and a bad player will call both. there are certainly some who will balk at the extra chips, but i think 69%+ who call 350 also call 510.

hehehe, 69.

ilya

09-22-2005, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is one spot where I would raise to 200 and define my hand. Any special reason why you shouldn't think you're ahead?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's cheaper to let SB define your hand by calling and seeing how he reacts to the turn. He's probably not gonna make another big bet if he has something like TT. If he is weak on the turn I think you can be pretty sure you're good. Then you can either take it down or check behind and make some money when he calls you on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

so do you fold if villain makes a normal bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against many villains, yes. if i think he's very LAG i will call him down. but in that scenario calling flop is still better as i give him a chance to fire more bluff barrels.

schwza

09-22-2005, 04:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is one spot where I would raise to 200 and define my hand. Any special reason why you shouldn't think you're ahead?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's cheaper to let SB define your hand by calling and seeing how he reacts to the turn. He's probably not gonna make another big bet if he has something like TT. If he is weak on the turn I think you can be pretty sure you're good. Then you can either take it down or check behind and make some money when he calls you on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

so do you fold if villain makes a normal bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against many villains, yes. if i think he's very LAG i will call him down. but in that scenario calling flop is still better as i give him a chance to fire more bluff barrels.

[/ QUOTE ]

in this hand, it's very early, so no reads. do you think folding the turn is too weak? i don't see any reason that villain is more likely to have a good ace than a bad one, and there are 3 bigger ones against 9 smaller ones, not to mention the other junk he could be holding.

ilya

09-22-2005, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is one spot where I would raise to 200 and define my hand. Any special reason why you shouldn't think you're ahead?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's cheaper to let SB define your hand by calling and seeing how he reacts to the turn. He's probably not gonna make another big bet if he has something like TT. If he is weak on the turn I think you can be pretty sure you're good. Then you can either take it down or check behind and make some money when he calls you on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

so do you fold if villain makes a normal bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against many villains, yes. if i think he's very LAG i will call him down. but in that scenario calling flop is still better as i give him a chance to fire more bluff barrels.

[/ QUOTE ]

in this hand, it's very early, so no reads. do you think folding the turn is too weak? i don't see any reason that villain is more likely to have a good ace than a bad one, and there are 3 bigger ones against 9 smaller ones, not to mention the other junk he could be holding.

[/ QUOTE ]

You call preflop and call pot on the Ace-high flop. You think one of the 7 (not 9) weaker Aces is gonna be confident enough to make a big bet on the turn? Furthermore, if you call a big bet on the turn, what do you do when he makes another big bet on the river?

schwza

09-22-2005, 05:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You call preflop and call pot on the Ace-high flop. You think one of the 7 (not 9) weaker Aces is gonna be confident enough to make a big bet on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

good point on the fewer Ax hands we beat (and i count 8 before considering two pair hands, so usually only 5 after the turn). that makes me happier about folding the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, if you call a big bet on the turn, what do you do when he makes another big bet on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know. but it's an argument for raising the flop so you don't get in a spot where you're likely to make a mistake.

The Yugoslavian

09-22-2005, 05:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
We've all seen that guy: He probably notices that we fold alot to PF raises, so he keeps this crap up the entire game.

I'm of the 'slap him on the nose with the newspaper and make him whimper into the corner' crowd when I get a chance against the SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you rather slap him around by getting him to bluff off most or all of his stack to you?

I like calling on the flop. Jeckyl: The reason you are 'calling for information' is that on the turn your opponent will do something...whatever that something is gives you information. In fact, it gives you more information than if you just pop the flop up to t200. Now the pot is getting very large and it will be difficult to interpret future bets and get the most value out of the villian.

Bullies are a good thing when you have position on them.

Yugoslav

Raiser

09-22-2005, 05:39 PM

Hey schwza.

One of the main reasons I don't like raising the flop is...

say you raise to 200ish and villain pushes. Now you are looking at ~1050 pot and have to call ~450 more. Pretty good odds and a pretty decent hand. That's a tough decision for me and one that I think you can make a mistake on pretty easily, and in this case the mistake would be very costly.

Calling the flop allows you to gather information cheaper. Then you can fold the turn to a "normal" bet and not make a huge mistake like raising the flop can lead to.

Does that make any sense?

The Yugoslavian

09-22-2005, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SB checks, Hero bets t650 (All-In),

[/ QUOTE ]

I normally make a value bet in the 150 range, which seems to get insta-called regularly. In lieu of this, I always wonder had I pushed (apparent steal attempt) would I get called just the same and I'm missing out on more chips.

I love when the turn hits me like that. Makes all your decisions much easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

See Lorinda's post. She has a nice post about pushing the river and getting called.

Lorinda's post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3441762&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't Lori way overpush the pot on the river though? Those fishy types of things can work well against the right type of opponent. In the case in this thread pushing the river isn't weird at all b/c a decent sized pot has already been built. Plus the pot is big enough to throw !~350 chips in and expect weak hands to make a crying call still giving you great value for your hand. In Lori's example it's either bet like ~100 or so or go allin for a big score. The big score only has to work 1 in like 8 type or so for it to work. While here it has to work every other time at roping in weak hands.

Yugoslav