My second time multi-tabling...

[ChuckyB]

Easing into multi-tabling, I was playing two tables at once. I was in a very promising hand on the other table and let this one go. Thoughts?

No one's very aggressive at this table (like BB who called two bets on the river with the nuts). Capping the flop happened just twice in the 100+ hands I was there.


Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 caps</font>, Hero folds

[thesharpie]

Raise preflop. I wouldn't fold the second time, even if you discount your overcard outs entirely, and discount your straight and BD flush outs for the times one of them makes a full house, you have ~5 outs here. Getting ~7 to 1 plus implied odds makes this a call IMO.

[Donkey Kong]

At a passive table like this one I'm folding faster than Superman on laundry day, on the first raise made by MP1 on the flop. I cant see any implied odds rescuing this from a fold.
You've probably got about 3,5 outs from the jacks and one out from your BDFD to the 2nd nuts. I have serious doubts about your overcards giving you any outs in this situation. In my experience (about 30k hands) very few of the passive party players know how to protect a hand, and wont reraise without a made hand of some sort. I'd put MP1 on a set or two pairs, meaning you're way behind. BB perhaps going a bit wild on a flush draw?

[ChuckyB]

I almost kicked myself in the nuts for not raising pre-flop. I've been playing straight from SSHE for the last couple of weeks and blew it on this one.

[ChuckyB]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd put MP1 on a set or two pairs, meaning you're way behind. BB perhaps going a bit wild on a flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what I thought. MP1 with 98 and BB with Ace-high flush draw. MP1 is way ahead and BB trying to build a pot in case his nut flush came through.

I figured my overcard outs were garbage, leaving me 3 for the non-heart jacks and 1.5 for the flush.

I think if I was playing at just this table, I might have stuck with it...implied odds and all. But two-tabling with action on the other, I figured I should cut my losses.

if you would have raised preflop the whole hand probably would have played differently

[ChuckyB]

[ QUOTE ]
if you would have raised preflop the whole hand probably would have played differently

[/ QUOTE ]


Clearly...but the...uh...cat...uh...jumped on the keyboard. Yeah, that's it.

Not raising was ridiculously dumb...but I was caught up in my other table.

[VoraciousReader]

I don't call 2 bets to me on the flop. Pot is small. We can agree we're behind since we're facing a bet and a raise, and we even lose to ace-high. Outs are 1.5 each for the overcards, 4 Js, and 1.5 for the bdfd, plus the J, Q, and K of /images/graemlins/heart.gifs are dirty and should be discounted. Say 7 outs X 2= 14%. You can not call two cold here.

Ironically enough, you could almost call getting 13:2 when the action gets back to you. So if my math is right, you called when you should have folded, and folded when you could have called.

[Reqtech]

Looks like you were concentrating too closely to the hand on the other table. Obviously, you should have raised pf (and you know that now from other posters /images/graemlins/smile.gif ), and that could have changed this whole hand. Multi-tabling requires that you pay a little less attention to an individual table and basically play ABC poker on all tables (at least for those of us who are multi-tabling novices).

If you spend too much of your enengy concentrating one table, you'll find yourself making inconsistant decisions like these:

calling 2 bets when there are 8 bets in the pot with 3 outs to the nuts, 1 out to a non-nut straight, 3 (discounted) overcard outs, and a backdoor flush draw.

and then you fold to 2 bets when there are 14 bets in the pot?

Those 2 decisions are very inconsistent.

[aces_dad]

I do agree with this point, that calling the flop the first time but not the second doesn't make a lot of sense. If you're calling the first time you should have called the second one as your pot odds are much better then second time around.

A couple things about multitabling are that you still have some time alotted to make the decision, so you should focus on the hand requiring your action at the moment then move back to the promising table. And in a situation like this, after calling the first 2 on the flop, you should have been prepared for the scenario that it was coming back raised to you. Once you decide to call the first time you should think "okay I called two so I'm auto calling any number coming back."

In other cases you may plan "I'm calling one but not 2 coming back" or whatever, but you can plan the next action as you make the first call.

The pot is 7-to-2 (3.5-to-1), making this a clear fold.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if I was playing at just this table, I might have stuck with it...implied odds and all. But two-tabling with action on the other, I figured I should cut my losses.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're thinking about this all wrong.

The action on the other table should not play a role here. With only two tables, you have plenty of time to play both (you have some 20 seconds to make a decision -- most of the time your decision is made in the first 3 seconds). Don't pass on a profitable situation because another table has a profitable situation. PLAY THEM BOTH (hence MULTI-table). The hand and the action will still be there in another 5 seconds.

You also didn't "cut your losses". You "limited your wins" by taking the worst of both worlds. Your first call is marginal at best. The second call is an easy peel because of the pot size. So you called when it was unprofitable and folded when it was profitable. How do you expect to make money like that?

[Shillx]

There is no way I'm flat calling on this flop. I'm either 3-betting or folding, and in a pot this small I'm just getting out of the way. If the pot were large I would 3-bet everytime.

Brad

[BatsShadow]

If you don't raise this preflop, what do you raise?

I could be off base here, but if you have odds to cold-call the first flop raise, then I'm pretty sure you have the odds to call the cap.

Edit: This was a grunch. Also, I should've said more clearly with the others that the first flop call is marginal at best but the fold then is bad.

[ChuckyB]

Not raising pre-flop was terrible. I was auto-piloting right from a SSHE list. I didn't spot KQs in the list (though it's obviously there) and I didn't put much thought into just how good a hand it is. Clear brain-fart on my part.

As for cold-calling two bets...I figured the raiser for something like A9 (leaving me at least 7.5 outs.) That's probably WAY too narrow a focus this early in a hand. When it was capped back to me, with how weak this table had been, I was thinking I was up against two-pair and a big flush draw, or trips. That left me about 4.5 outs (3 Js and backdoor flush). That didn't look too good so I cut bait.

[ChuckyB]

If you donk and call the 2-bets, do you then call the cap bet?

[ChuckyB]

As silly as it sounds at .50/1.00, I guess I panicked (for lack of a better word.)

[ChuckyB]

[ QUOTE ]
And in a situation like this, after calling the first 2 on the flop, you should have been prepared for the scenario that it was coming back raised to you. Once you decide to call the first time you should think "okay I called two so I'm auto calling any number coming back."

[/ QUOTE ]


I guess it freaked me out seeing the flop get capped, because this was not a capping table. The only other time over two hours that it happened was when my nut straight went up against top set.

From your post it sounds like if you cold-call two-bets (or two-bet yourself), you're prepared to call it if it comes back capped to you. Have you ever run into a situation where you would fold in that situation? Or do you re-evaluate and do any necessary folding on the turn/river?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
As silly as it sounds at .50/1.00, I guess I panicked (for lack of a better word.)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not silly. It happens. It's all part of the learning process.

[BatsShadow]

I understand you were distracted at the other table. This used to happen to me all the time. I still can't play more than 2 tables very well.

The questions about the flop call(s) make this an interesting thread. If I was in that situation, I probably would've called the raise and then also the cap. Now I wonder if folding right away was probably the best play.

[Student Caine]

Ok, I'm Grunching here:

Starting Hand: KQs is a strong starting hand and your position is not bad. I like to bring it in with a raise here for a couple of reasons:

1) KQs is a good starting hand so you want to start building the pot for yourself.

2) If you can steal the button you will most likely get to see the turn for free if you want to.

Pot Odds and Outs: This pot is small, so I think that the odds are gonna' show us to drop this.

So we have 2 overcards, a gutshot straight draw, and a backdoor flush draw. With the heart draw out there I think we need to cut our overcard outs in half. 1 of our gutshot outs is dirty and while I don't usually discount outs in the face of a two flush I think that we need to here with the action we are seeing ahead of us - so I'll call the J/images/graemlins/heart.gif .5 outs giving us 3.5 outs for the gutshot. We also have 1.5 outs for our gutshot.

So we are looking at 8 total outs here, which means that we need ~5:1 here to call. If we assume that BB will just call, we are looking at puttin in 2 SB while the pot is offering us 8 SB. This means that we are not getting the odds that we need. Couple this with the fact that we are sandwiched between the raiser and the original better our situation just gets worse. If the betting is capped, we will be putting in 4 SB to win 12 SB.

So our pot odds are telling us that we need to fold here.

EDIT: We need to note that once we call the first two cold, we are in fact getting odds to call the second 2 cold (we are putting in 2 to win 14).

Implied Odds: So if we did in fact call the cap on the flop and we assume that we pay 1 BB on the turn and river with two other players on the turn and one on the river (figure that one of these guys is on a draw and misses) then we will have paid a total of 4.5 BB and the pot will be 9 BB. So our implied odds are 2:1. If we are dealing with raises on the turn things only get worse.

Hand Ranges: Without reads this is a tough one. We didn't see any preflop raises so if we think that we are looking at some "Miller-esque" players then we should be looking at:

Flop:
BB = He's random at this point.

MP1 = 88-22, ATo, A9s-A2s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, T9s-98s, KQo-KJo

Postflop:
BB = 94, T9, 44, 99, TT, QJ *maybe* T with a big kicker, but I really think that we are looking at two pair or a set here.

MP = Th9h, 44, 99, TT, QhJh, KhJh/Th, AhXh - I really think he has a big hand or he is on a big draw here

Am I seeing ghosts with these hand ranges? I have picked out some pretty tough hands for us to be up against here.

With these ranges PokerStove gives us 20% equity here, which doesn't seem to be way out of whack....

[Cosimo]

[ QUOTE ]
Easing into multi-tabling, I was playing two tables at once. I was in a very promising hand on the other table and let this one go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad bad bad.

There's three aspects to multi-tabling: soft focus, ABC poker, and "number of mental registers."

1) Soft focus is the ability to maintain awareness of many things at the same time. Although this is similar to what I'll describe in #3, what I mean here is the practiced aspect of it. You have to be able to scan action on multiple tables to figure out what's signifigant and what's not. Multi-tabling on party, I scan from table to table looking for upcards (mine) and action buttons. If you play enough, you'll get to the point where you can make 95% of decisions in under a second and spend the rest of the time searching for places where you need to pay attention (and then paying attention there). Even 8-tabling, you'll have about six seconds per decision, and that's on average. When it gets down to it, you should have 20+ seconds to think about hard decisions, maybe making clicks now and then to quickly fold crap on other tables. This is all trainable. You'll get better at it.

BTW, it helps to play first-person shooters. No, really. There's been studies.

2) ABC poker. As I said above, the vast majority of your decisions will be cut-n-dried. Decisions requiring reads are rare. Since most decisions (maybe 90%) are folds (see appendix A), you're really spending all that time at the table on a very small number of complex decisions.

3) "Number of mental registers." Here I refer readers to a psych paper (http://www.well.com/user/smalin/miller.html) about how humans handle complex information. Some people can handle twelve tables; others will have trouble with two. Don't sweat it, you are who you are.

--

Appendix A:

Say you play a hundred hands. You'll check-fold 80 of those. Five of those will be raised behind you, so that's 105 preflop decisions.

Of the 25 that get to the flop, you'll fold about 16 of them. Maybe two or three of the rest will require a second decision. That's 27 more decisions. If you're familiar with several common lines (FD, OESD, TP+ISD+BDFD, WA/WB, etc) and the common considerations (how coordinated and/or low is the board? are my opponents loose, tight, passive, maniacal, or tricky?) many of the bet/raise/call hands will be quick decisions. Sometimes here I'll still count outs, discounting based upon my opponents and the board, but that's still under six seconds. Multiply outs by the pot size, and compare to 47 while considering implied odds. Easy fold, easy raise? Quick decision.

Nine hands get to the turn. At this point we're talking four decisions each, at most, although usually most decisions are compound: check/call, bet/call, bet/raise/cap, etc, and once you've made the decision it's easy to execute.

A handful of hands get to the river, call it five (which I think is generous). Maybe six-seven decisions.

146 total decisions, of which 73% were preflop and half the rest were check-fold.

[TomBrooks]

PF: Raising preflop to get it HU with a good hand is OK, but if a lot of people cold call on this table anyway, getting in cheaper and going for overcalls is not bad as KQs plays well multiway.

FL: You had 11 outs before considering implied odds and if they were clean you were getting odds to call two on the flop. Calling the first two and folding to the cap was silly as already pointed out.

[jrz1972]

I've never seen a post requiring an appendix before. nh.

That scenario cant happen on the flop.
However if it were checked to me and I bet, SB raises, BB 3-bets and MP1 caps I would fold faster than lightning... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If your scenario is to happen we will have to rearrange the opponents.

New flop:
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, SB calls, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, CO caps, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls faster than ligtning...

[ChuckyB]

[ QUOTE ]
That scenario cant happen on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]


It did happen on the flop in the OP. SB checked, BB bet, MP1 raised, I called.

You said "if you donk", isnt that supposed to mean that you BET the flop in this situation? Which you couldnt because someone else did that. *confused*

[Hoss1193]

I can't quite see the helmet...is that a TAMU player in your avatar? I guess could also be VT.