I hit flush on turn, board double pairs on river [Archive]

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Jocke_F

09-21-2005, 04:07 PM

No reads at all on villain

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($119.05)
BB ($157.90)
UTG ($124.55)
Hero ($119.30)
Button ($66.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, Hero calls $1, 1 fold, SB (poster) raises to $2.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.

Flop: ($7) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets $5, Hero raises to $12, SB calls $7.

Turn: ($31) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $15, SB calls $15.

River: ($61) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $15, SB raises to $70, Hero calls $55.

Final Pot: $201

Hate it, like it, standard?

Hoopster81

09-21-2005, 04:08 PM

Why in God's name did you bet that river?

orange

09-21-2005, 04:15 PM

Whats up with the small bet on the river? A feeble attempt of a blocker I presume?

amoeba

09-21-2005, 04:19 PM

I really don't understand river.

there is no need to block when you ahve the check behind option.

is that 15 extra really that important to you?

river is really really bad.

TheWorstPlayer

09-21-2005, 04:22 PM

Yup - check river. Or value bet for real so that you get a call from a K. I think it's a fine value bet. But don't bet so small.

Jocke_F

09-21-2005, 04:50 PM

cause I thought I was ahead and that was the most I could get from him if he had a king, could also induce a bluff. I really don't think a standard player checks this river with quads/boat

Jocke_F

09-21-2005, 04:55 PM

well it was a combined value/induce bluff bet, not sure if he really had it in him to call more with a king when board is double paired and 3 to a flush

LetYouDown

09-21-2005, 04:57 PM

Check behind like everyone else said...including you. I fold to the raise...but I wouldn't put myself in that spot as it is.

Jocke_F

09-21-2005, 05:06 PM

I find checking this river very weak, I seriously have no reason to belive I am behind here

punter11235

09-21-2005, 05:06 PM

Turn bet is awful.
You should bet the turn big. Then check behind the river.
As played you call at the end is hopeless.
Checkraising bluff on this river is quite ballsy and not many players would try it. Just fold.

Best wishes

Jocke_F

09-22-2005, 02:17 AM

turn bet is awful ? as far as I can tell he is drawing to 2 outs and I want him to stay in noone agrees?

PoBoy321

09-22-2005, 02:48 AM

Bet more on the turn, check behind the river, KK pwned you.

Jocke_F

09-22-2005, 11:17 AM

The guy had KQo
To be honest I think the advice I got on this hand was awful, first of all, betting big on turn will most likely only get worse hands to fold and keep in the monsters that beat me and possibly AK, I am not afraid to get outdrawn this is as way ahead, way behind it can get so I dont need to bet big to protect my hand.
On the river, does anyone check a boat or quads here, the risk of me checking behind is huge, betting out will possibly get him value from a king or a flush and he will get raised by a nines full boat anyway, and if really check-raised with a monster here wouldn't it make more sense if he pushed it all in.

amoeba

09-22-2005, 11:24 AM

nobody decent checks the boat or quads but you had no reads on villain. I don't think I can bet this river without reads. besides, most Ks fold anyways.

Nh though. well played.

LetYouDown

09-22-2005, 11:27 AM

I still think you played this poorly. You got very lucky that he made a move with a hand that could only beat a bluff. What the hell do you do if he moves in after you bet 1/4 of the pot on the river. I think you're bordering on results oriented here.

TheWorstPlayer

09-22-2005, 11:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a fine value bet. But don't bet so small.

[/ QUOTE ]
Most people won't check/raise a hand with showdown value that is almost never getting a better hand to fold. This guy played like a retard but you didn't bet enough and left value on the table against non-retards.

Jocke_F

09-22-2005, 11:29 AM

I still call.
Might need an explanation, why would he bet out with a flopped monster then suddenly start to slowplay it, going for a weird river check-raise that line doesn't make any sense at all to me and I would still put him on a bluff and call

Jocke_F

09-22-2005, 11:44 AM

best advice I got by far was betting more on the river, maybe half pot it? Do you see any problems with the other streets?

TheWorstPlayer

09-22-2005, 11:50 AM

Other streets are cool, but if I'm raising this flop I'm going to make it a big enough raise that someone could possibly fold something. And if you do that, then you have no problem betting enough on the turn/river to get all in against a king. Nice hand, though. Most people don't value bet this river, but I think it is a good value bet. The only reason I initially suggested checking was because you are obviously pot stuck if you bet. But then I came to my sense and realised he must have a king and you should obviously value bet.

LetYouDown

09-22-2005, 11:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
best advice I wanted to hear was betting more on the river, maybe half pot it? Do you see any problems with the other streets?

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP.

TheWorstPlayer

09-22-2005, 11:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
best advice I wanted to hear was betting more on the river, maybe half pot it? Do you see any problems with the other streets?

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are wrong if you don't think this should be a river value bet.

LetYouDown

09-22-2005, 11:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You are wrong if you don't think this should be a river value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Value bet I can see. $15 is asking for trouble. Don't like previous streets either. I bet more on the turn.

Andrew Fletcher

09-22-2005, 11:57 AM

Does anyone think the call PF is too loose? Am I too tight PF?

LetYouDown

09-22-2005, 11:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone think the call PF is too loose? Am I too tight PF?

[/ QUOTE ]
Egh...not really. It's 6-max after all. I'd probably see a flop.

TheWorstPlayer

09-22-2005, 12:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are wrong if you don't think this should be a river value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Value bet I can see. $15 is asking for trouble. Don't like previous streets either. I bet more on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
He said that betting more on the river was good advice and then you 'fixed his post'. But now you agree with what he said. I'm confused. Anyways, to people who don't like the value bet on the river, here are a few examples.

Hand 1
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($487.95)
UTG ($200)
Button ($206.60)
TWP ($200.80)

Preflop: TWP is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. TWP posts a blind of $1.
UTG raises to $4, 1 fold, TWP (poster) raises to $11, 1 fold, UTG calls $8.

Flop: ($26) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
TWP checks, UTG bets $8, TWP calls $8.

Turn: ($42) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
TWP checks, UTG checks.

River: ($42) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
TWP bets $10, UTG calls $10.

Final Pot: $62

Results in white below: 
UTG has 8h Kh (two pair, aces and queens).
TWP has Kd Kc (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: TWP wins $62. 

Hand 2
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($104.20)
UTG ($360.54)
Button ($88)
TWP ($373.85)

Preflop: TWP is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. TWP posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, Button calls $2, TWP (poster) raises to $7, 1 fold, Button calls $6.

Flop: ($18) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
TWP bets $12, Button calls $12.

Turn: ($42) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
TWP bets $20, Button calls $20.

River: ($82) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
TWP bets $50, Button calls $48 (All-In).

Final Pot: $180

Results in white below: 
Button has Ac Jh (two pair, jacks and eights).
TWP has Kd Ks (two pair, kings and eights).
Outcome: TWP wins $180. 

Hand 3
Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP ($84.85)
TWP ($227.35)
SB ($338.25)
BB ($662.50)
UTG ($189)

Preflop: TWP is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, TWP raises to $7, 1 fold, BB calls $5.

Flop: ($15) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, TWP checks.

Turn: ($15) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, TWP bets $14.25, BB calls $14.25.

River: ($43.50) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, TWP bets $41.5, BB calls $41.50.

Final Pot: $126.50

Results in white below: 
BB has 7s 7c (two pair, jacks and sevens).
TWP has Kh Kd (two pair, kings and jacks).
Outcome: TWP wins $126.50. 

And these just took me 1 second to find. I have tons more.

Jocke_F

09-22-2005, 12:05 PM

I dont think its too loose 6max, but I don't really like my own limp call, most of the times I open raise suited aces from this position, but just felt like mixing it up.

LetYouDown

09-22-2005, 12:07 PM

I was making the point that he asked for opinions and didn't want to hear them unless they agreed with him. Nothing more.

TheWorstPlayer

09-22-2005, 12:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was making the point that he asked for opinions and didn't want to hear them unless they agreed with him. Nothing more.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, okay. Although the people who said to check were wrong and his value bet was right, you may still have a point that he wasn't that open to criticism. :shrug:

LetYouDown

09-22-2005, 12:13 PM

I still think an argument can be made either way and is opponent dependent. For $15, I don't like opening the door to being put in an awkward checkraise spot. I see the mentality that he might just call the $15...but the bet looks like weak acting strong. I wouldn't pay it with K-Q...let alone check raise it.

Jocke_F

09-22-2005, 12:22 PM

why am I betting more on the turn, to protect my hand or to win more, should I fold to a check-raise?

LetYouDown

09-22-2005, 12:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why am I betting more on the turn, to protect my hand or to win more

[/ QUOTE ]
Both. I tend to protect my hand more than most, and perhaps I lose some value. At lower limits I tend to play as straightforward as possible.

TheWorstPlayer

09-22-2005, 12:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why am I betting more on the turn, to protect my hand or to win more

[/ QUOTE ]
Both. I tend to protect my hand more than most, and perhaps I lose some value. At lower limits I tend to play as straightforward as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is just about zero question that villain is drawing to 4 outs. His bet protected his hand fine. He could also have bet more since it is unlikely villain fold a K here even if you push it all in. They really suck, I've noticed.

LetYouDown

09-22-2005, 12:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There is just about zero question that villain is drawing to 4 outs. His bet protected his hand fine. He could also have bet more since it is unlikely villain fold a K here even if you push it all in. They really suck, I've noticed.

[/ QUOTE ]
Against some opponents, I will definitely push this turn if I put them on just a K...mostly because they'll think I didn't hit the flush and they can't lay it down. Worth noting that I'd only really do that at low stakes or against a donk in a higher game.