War and relegion

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

can anyone say roughly what percent of documented wars on earth were directly or indirectly based on religion? The "war on terror" could be considered indirectly based on religion for example. Do you think we would have had more or less wars w/o any form of religion or belief in a god?

[VarlosZ]

What, exactly, constitutes a "war"? What method shall we use to determine if a war was wholly or partly based on religion? How are we separating religion from other, related cultural differences?

In other words, the answer to your first question is almost certainly "no."

[housenuts]

none of the recent wars have been based on religion.

people always try to say this is the reason for all wars, and if there was no religion, the world would be a happy place, but this is untrue.

[housenuts]

also how do u figure the "war on terror" is indirectly caused by religion?

[DougShrapnel]

for every year of peace in humankind’s history there have been fourteen years of war, 90% of which have been fought either because of, or under the banner of, God by whatever name.

[RJT]

Then can we get the % of wars based on other reasons – which off the top of my head would seem to come under "moral or ethical" standards? (Therefore, justifiable?)

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
"We will rally the world to this cause by our efforts, by our courage. We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail...... The course of this conflict is not known, yet it's outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them...... Fellow citizens, we'll meet violence with patient justice -- assured of the rightness of our cause, and confident of the victories to come. In all that lies before us, may God grant us wisdom, and may He watch over the United States of America."

[/ QUOTE ]

[RJT]

Ironic, isn't it?

[DougShrapnel]

Religion is a strong motivator. And I'm surprised the number is only 90%.

[housenuts]

let's see...

french revolution 1789 - not over religion
war of independence - 1776 - not over religion
us civil war 1861 - not over religion
japan-russia war 1905 - not over religion
world war I - not over religion
world war II - not over religion
soviet-afghan war 1980's - not over religion
iran-iraq war 1980's - not over religion
gulf war - not over religion
current "war" - not over religion
all the wars waged by napoleon as he ravaged through europe - not over religion


that's off the top of my head. i'm sure there are many more. do not confuse religion with nationalism. sure these combatants may have had different religions, but religion was not the reason for the wars.

wars based on religion date back much further.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
let's see...

french revolution 1789 - not over religion
war of independence - 1776 - not over religion
us civil war 1861 - not over religion
japan-russia war 1905 - not over religion
world war I - not over religion
world war II - not over religion
soviet-afghan war 1980's - not over religion
iran-iraq war 1980's - not over religion
gulf war - not over religion
current "war" - not over religion
all the wars waged by napoleon as he ravaged through europe - not over religion


that's off the top of my head. i'm sure there are many more. do not confuse religion with nationalism. sure these combatants may have had different religions, but religion was not the reason for the wars.

wars based on religion date back much further.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you say the war on terror is not a religious war? Our enemy is most certainly motivated mainly by religious beliefs.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
none of the recent wars have been based on religion.

people always try to say this is the reason for all wars, and if there was no religion, the world would be a happy place, but this is untrue.

[/ QUOTE ]

im not saying that. Im not saying anything. Im sipmly asking a question.

however, the "war on terror" is party based on religion. Most of the "terrorists" that we are fighting are alledgedly on religious jihads (sp?).

ill put a jihad on your ass! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
for every year of peace in humankind’s history there have been fourteen years of war, 90% of which have been fought either because of, or under the banner of, God by whatever name.

[/ QUOTE ]

can you site a source for this please?

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
What, exactly, constitutes a "war"? What method shall we use to determine if a war was wholly or partly based on religion? How are we separating religion from other, related cultural differences?

In other words, the answer to your first question is almost certainly "no."

[/ QUOTE ]

use whatever definitions you like.

see "roughly"

[DougShrapnel]

Ken Wilber

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
Ken Wilber

[/ QUOTE ]
that doesnt help much.

[DougShrapnel]

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/147/story_14762_1.html

Still don't think it's what you are looking for, and don't know how creadible he is.

[housenuts]

[ QUOTE ]
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none of the recent wars have been based on religion.

people always try to say this is the reason for all wars, and if there was no religion, the world would be a happy place, but this is untrue.

[/ QUOTE ]

im not saying that. Im not saying anything. Im sipmly asking a question.

however, the "war on terror" is party based on religion. Most of the "terrorists" that we are fighting are alledgedly on religious jihads (sp?).

ill put a jihad on your ass! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

this is not a war of religion. they aren't out to smash christianity. they are opposed to the american corporatocracy and excessive consumption. they also dislike the fact that america is the world police.

as for the americans, they aren't waging war in Iraq/Afghanistan to rid the world of Muslims, Sikhs, or any other religion. they are simply seeking out those who oppose them.

and i forgot about Vietnam, and Korea. both of those were not fought over religion either.

[housenuts]

by the way, i am not a proponent of religion. in fact i think religion is useless, and perhaps the best scam of all time. i think it causes other problems for the world which i won't get into, but for the last 3 centuries religion has not been a major factor in any big wars.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
they are opposed to the american corporatocracy and excessive consumption. they also dislike the fact that america is the world police.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is because of their religious views.

I think that the enemy is motivated by their hatred of capitalism but they also view us as the infidel and have declared a Jihad(holy war) on the infidel. Bush's war motivations aren't really religious. He says that god is behind us and such but he doesn't go as far as Joan of Arc and says "God told me to got to war".

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
He says that god is behind us and such but he doesn't go as far as Joan of Arc and says "God told me to got to war".



[/ QUOTE ]

Bush stopped short of saying "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did." But i think that him saying what side god was on clearly shows a motive.

I think that his saying god is on our side is just a justification and way of saying my buddy god would agree. But this is inherrent in any war. When the Nazis were slaughtering Jews and trying to conquer the world, the British decided to stop this. And I'm sure they said "I fancy God is with us", but they didn't go to war because of god or religion. Any religious party in a war is going to say that their god supports them, but that doesn't mean that the war is for god.

[mackthefork]

98% is conservative in my opinion. No doubt we would find something else to fight about if there was no religion though, definitely less though.

Mack

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
also how do u figure the "war on terror" is indirectly caused by religion?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be obtuse. Terrorists are motivated by their religious beliefs.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He says that god is behind us and such but he doesn't go as far as Joan of Arc and says "God told me to got to war".



[/ QUOTE ]

Bush stopped short of saying "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did." But i think that him saying what side god was on clearly shows a motive.

[/ QUOTE ]


no war america has been in has been at all motivated by religion on our side of it. We fight for money, power and strategery.

[DougShrapnel]

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He says that god is behind us and such but he doesn't go as far as Joan of Arc and says "God told me to got to war".




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Bush stopped short of saying "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did." But i think that him saying what side god was on clearly shows a motive.


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no war america has been in has been at all motivated by religion on our side of it. We fight for money, power and strategery.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes but I inluded when we fight for money, power and strategery under the banner of god when answering the question.

The civil war is a rare case of a war that was not fought under the banner of God. Only if you refer to the 4 reins of popes that endorsed slavery as a cause of the civil war can we say that religion was a casue of the civil war. Which I think would qualify religioin as being a indirect cause of the civil war.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes but I inluded when we fight for money, power and strategery under the banner of god when answering the question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever heard of the separation of church and state?

I mean, I know some of these assholes in our government think we should all be the same religion, but technically, according to the constitution, there is no official religion. Therefore, our country doesn't fight wars based on religion.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

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He says that god is behind us and such but he doesn't go as far as Joan of Arc and says "God told me to got to war".




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Bush stopped short of saying "God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did." But i think that him saying what side god was on clearly shows a motive.


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no war america has been in has been at all motivated by religion on our side of it. We fight for money, power and strategery.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes but I inluded when we fight for money, power and strategery under the banner of god when answering the question.

The civil war is a rare case of a war that was not fought under the banner of God. Only if you refer to the 4 reins of popes that endorsed slavery as a cause of the civil war can we say that religion was a casue of the civil war. Which I think would qualify religioin as being a indirect cause of the civil war.

[/ QUOTE ]

saying that god is on our side and fighting a war w/ other specific reasoning does not make it a religous war. Not even indirectly. In fact i would say that fighting a war because god is on our side is a huge violation of the constitution.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
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Yes but I inluded when we fight for money, power and strategery under the banner of god when answering the question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever heard of the separation of church and state?

I mean, I know some of these assholes in our government think we should all be the same religion, but technically, according to the constitution, there is no official religion. Therefore, our country doesn't fight wars based on religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

u beat me to it /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
Ever heard of the separation of church and state?

I mean, I know some of these assholes in our government think we should all be the same religion, but technically, according to the constitution, there is no official religion. Therefore, our country doesn't fight wars based on religion.

[/ QUOTE ] Did you miss my quote of gwb? Where he clearly states what side god was on. How is that not fighting a war under the banner of god?



p.s I'd imagine most of these assholes in our government think we should all be the same religion, and I'm positive most of them want us to have a monotheistic religoin, if not xtianity.

p.s.s Even if I lose the debate over whether or not Bush's statement qualifies, I'll surely win the the debate that the muslim extremeists are motivated by religion. Heck, it's a tautology.

[ QUOTE ]
The civil war is a rare case of a war that was not fought under the banner of God. Only if you refer to the 4 reins of popes that endorsed slavery as a cause of the civil war can we say that religion was a casue of the civil war. Which I think would qualify religioin as being a indirect cause of the civil war.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, we play fast and loose with cause and effect on this board.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you miss my quote of gwb? Where he clearly states what side god was on. How is that not fighting a war under the banner of god?

[/ QUOTE ]

the question has nothing to do w/ the "banner of god". the rescent wars we have been in have had NOTHING to do with god or religion from our side of it. If god told gwb directly that he did not support this war, i assure you we would still be there fighting it.

[DougShrapnel]

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The civil war is a rare case of a war that was not fought under the banner of God. Only if you refer to the 4 reins of popes that endorsed slavery as a cause of the civil war can we say that religion was a casue of the civil war. Which I think would qualify religioin as being a indirect cause of the civil war.


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Wow, we play fast and loose with cause and effect on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's more fun that way. Is it a bit to much of a stretch or is it cleary wrong?

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
the question has nothing to do w/ the "banner of god". the rescent wars we have been in have had NOTHING to do with god or religion from our side of it. If god told gwb directly that he did not support this war, i assure you we would still be there fighting it.

[/ QUOTE ] I think it does have to do with the banner of god because it's a huge motivator.

Or if I am being unpatriotic and we are in Iraq to help insure that the shi'ite and sooni(really bad spelling) can from a democracy. This way it's a war that is caused by religion.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll surely win the the debate that the muslim extremeists are motivated by religion

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, man, I'm with you 100% on this.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the question has nothing to do w/ the "banner of god". the rescent wars we have been in have had NOTHING to do with god or religion from our side of it. If god told gwb directly that he did not support this war, i assure you we would still be there fighting it.

[/ QUOTE ] I think it does have to do with the banner of god because it's a huge motivator.

Or if I am being unpatriotic and we are in Iraq to help insure that the shi'ite and sooni(really bad spelling) can from a democracy. This way it's a war that is caused by religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude. a huge motivator? you think they sit around at the pentagon and are like "hmm should we goto war here? Oh snap! ill bet god is on our side, lets do it!"
religion has NOTHING to do w/ our wars. not even indirectly. however, on the opposing force's side it may be the main reason.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
dude. a huge motivator?

[/ QUOTE ] For the people who are fighting the war and the people at home supporting it.

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The civil war is a rare case of a war that was not fought under the banner of God. Only if you refer to the 4 reins of popes that endorsed slavery as a cause of the civil war can we say that religion was a casue of the civil war. Which I think would qualify religioin as being a indirect cause of the civil war.


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Wow, we play fast and loose with cause and effect on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's more fun that way. Is it a bit to much of a stretch or is it cleary wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, using "6 degrees of Kevin Bacon"-type of arguments to discuss causes of wars seems a bit too much for me. Ideas then become so watered down that they lose meaning.

[ QUOTE ]
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dude. a huge motivator?

[/ QUOTE ] For the people who are fighting the war and the people at home supporting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The people in the military are generally much too professional to be motivated by their religious beliefs in fighting this war. I know that might surprise you, but from my experience it is absolutley true. We have enough motivating factors to fight on.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
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dude. a huge motivator?

[/ QUOTE ] For the people who are fighting the war and the people at home supporting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

its too bad those people dont make the descision to enter into a war. Also thats not true for everyone, and prolly not even the majority.

[DougShrapnel]

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I'll surely win the the debate that the muslim extremeists are motivated by religion


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Hey, man, I'm with you 100% on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool so that's settled, the war on terror is at least partly caused on one side by religion. Want to move on to the civil war? Does the churchs endorsment of slavery have and causal relationship to it?

Or if you want, The British civil war/American revolution was cleary fought under the banner of God. And since it was a just war, many where swayed to the revolutionist side, without being able to affilliate with religion the revolution would not have succeded.

[ QUOTE ]
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I'll surely win the the debate that the muslim extremeists are motivated by religion

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, man, I'm with you 100% on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are much more likely motivated by their political beliefs than their religious beliefs. Religion is usually an excuse to rile up the masses to support their cause, that's all.

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
dude. a huge motivator?

[/ QUOTE ] For the people who are fighting the war and the people at home supporting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The people in the military are generally much too professional to be motivated by their religious beliefs in fighting this war. I know that might surprise you, but from my experience it is absolutley true. We have enough motivating factors to fight on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you in the military?

[ QUOTE ]
Or if you want, The British civil war/American revolution was cleary fought under the banner of God. And since it was a just war, many where swayed to the revolutionist side, without being able to affilliate with religion the revolution would not have succeded.

[/ QUOTE ]

False. The war was almost solely fought on economic and political reasons (like self-government). Look at almost any dogma of the day and it is not religious appeals made by the revolutionariues, but rather economic appeals.

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dude. a huge motivator?

[/ QUOTE ] For the people who are fighting the war and the people at home supporting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The people in the military are generally much too professional to be motivated by their religious beliefs in fighting this war. I know that might surprise you, but from my experience it is absolutley true. We have enough motivating factors to fight on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you in the military?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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dude. a huge motivator?

[/ QUOTE ] For the people who are fighting the war and the people at home supporting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The people in the military are generally much too professional to be motivated by their religious beliefs in fighting this war. I know that might surprise you, but from my experience it is absolutley true. We have enough motivating factors to fight on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you in the military?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you're only a "kid"?

[ QUOTE ]
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dude. a huge motivator?

[/ QUOTE ] For the people who are fighting the war and the people at home supporting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The people in the military are generally much too professional to be motivated by their religious beliefs in fighting this war. I know that might surprise you, but from my experience it is absolutley true. We have enough motivating factors to fight on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you in the military?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you're only a "kid"?

[/ QUOTE ]

33, in for 11 years thus far.

"kidluckee" is just a poker screen name.

[DougShrapnel]

HOw does this

" Religion is usually an excuse to rile up the masses to support their cause, that's all."

and

"The people in the military are generally much too professional to be motivated by their religious beliefs in fighting this war. I know that might surprise you, but from my experience it is absolutley true. We have enough motivating factors to fight on. "

work. Religion is used to rile up the mases on thier side, but on our side we are very professional? This amounts to nothing more than chauvinism.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

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I'll surely win the the debate that the muslim extremeists are motivated by religion


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Hey, man, I'm with you 100% on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool so that's settled, the war on terror is at least partly caused on one side by religion. Want to move on to the civil war? Does the churchs endorsment of slavery have and causal relationship to it?

Or if you want, The British civil war/American revolution was cleary fought under the banner of God. And since it was a just war, many where swayed to the revolutionist side, without being able to affilliate with religion the revolution would not have succeded.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh clearly eh? i disagree. also...

THE BANNER OF GOD DOES NOT COUNT!!!!!!

why dont you talk about some ACTUALL religious wars. There have been PLENTY.

[sexdrugsmoney]

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dude. a huge motivator?

[/ QUOTE ] For the people who are fighting the war and the people at home supporting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The people in the military are generally much too professional to be motivated by their religious beliefs in fighting this war. I know that might surprise you, but from my experience it is absolutley true. We have enough motivating factors to fight on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you in the military?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you're only a "kid"?

[/ QUOTE ]

33, in for 11 years thus far.

"kidluckee" is just a poker screen name.

[/ QUOTE ]

33? C'mon kidluckee, I'm not sure you could sell the concept of you being 33 to a single person on this forum. (your postings seem uber-youthful)

Cheers,
SDM

[DougShrapnel]

"THE BANNER OF GOD DOES NOT COUNT!!!!!! "
Why does the banner of god not count?

"why dont you talk about some ACTUALL religious wars. There have been PLENTY." They aren't as interesting a thought exercise.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
Religion is used to rile up the mases on thier side, but on our side we are very professional?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is highly plausible. where have you been for the last 100 years? we are teh pwn w/ money, power, technology and communication. They are not.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
"THE BANNER OF GOD DOES NOT COUNT!!!!!! "
Why does the banner of god not count?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets say that i want the money in your wallet. I attack you and scream "GOD IS ON MY SIDE!!!". i attacked you for the money, not because god was on my side.

[ QUOTE ]
"why dont you talk about some ACTUALL religious wars. There have been PLENTY." They aren't as interesting a thought exercise.

[/ QUOTE ]

your brain must be very tired from all the insane stretching and speculating your doing.

[DougShrapnel]

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Religion is used to rile up the mases on thier side, but on our side we are very professional?


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this is highly plausible. where have you been for the last 100 years? we are teh pwn w/ money, power, technology and communication. They are not.

[/ QUOTE ] Are you in the military as well?

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

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Religion is used to rile up the mases on thier side, but on our side we are very professional?


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this is highly plausible. where have you been for the last 100 years? we are teh pwn w/ money, power, technology and communication. They are not.

[/ QUOTE ] Are you in the military as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

[censored] NO!

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets say that i want the money in your wallet. I attack you and scream "GOD IS ON MY SIDE!!!". i attacked you for the money, not because god was on my side.


[/ QUOTE ] Lets say that i want the money in your wallet. I scream to people that would follow me and God "God is on our side". They go get the money. I attacked you for the money, but they attacked you for justice.

[DougShrapnel]

Ok so why are you chauvinistic?

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lets say that i want the money in your wallet. I attack you and scream "GOD IS ON MY SIDE!!!". i attacked you for the money, not because god was on my side.


[/ QUOTE ] Lets say that i want the money in your wallet. I scream to people that would follow me and God "God is on our side". They go get the money. I attacked you for the money, but they attacked you for justice.

[/ QUOTE ]

wouldnt the reason for said attack be that you want my money? religion in this case is used as a tactic in war, rather than a reason for it.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok so why are you chauvinistic?

[/ QUOTE ]
Im not. I was simply stating a fact. you should look that word up before using it so liberaly.

stop posting here as you are not adding anything constructive nor using an open mind in this argument. also you are getting off topic.

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dude. a huge motivator?

[/ QUOTE ] For the people who are fighting the war and the people at home supporting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The people in the military are generally much too professional to be motivated by their religious beliefs in fighting this war. I know that might surprise you, but from my experience it is absolutley true. We have enough motivating factors to fight on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you in the military?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you're only a "kid"?

[/ QUOTE ]

33, in for 11 years thus far.

"kidluckee" is just a poker screen name.

[/ QUOTE ]

33? C'mon kidluckee, I'm not sure you could sell the concept of you being 33 to a single person on this forum. (your postings seem uber-youthful)

Cheers,
SDM

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, okay, do I have to send picture ID, what bis this Golden Palace Poker?

[DougShrapnel]

Agreed, to you the only reason was the want of the money.

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Religion is used to rile up the mases on thier side, but on our side we are very professional? This amounts to nothing more than chauvinism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you see any 16-year olds in the American military strapping on bombs and blowing themselves up?

And I don't think their suicide bombers are paid $60k/year and given the level of training as our troops, thus uts reasonable to assume they have different motivations.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you see any 16-year olds in the American military strapping on bombs and blowing themselves up?

And I don't think their suicide bombers are paid $60k/year and given the level of training as our troops, thus uts reasonable to assume they have different motivations.

[/ QUOTE ] Kid, i don't think i wish to argue with you becuse you are in the military. You are actually putting your life on the line for what you believe in, and that demands respect.

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Do you see any 16-year olds in the American military strapping on bombs and blowing themselves up?

And I don't think their suicide bombers are paid $60k/year and given the level of training as our troops, thus uts reasonable to assume they have different motivations.

[/ QUOTE ] Kid, i don't think i wish to argue with you becuse you are in the military. You are actually putting your life on the line for what you believe in, and that demands respect.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm not. I'm in grad school as a military officer and respect those actually doing the job.

But being in the military, I can tell you that there is not a fanatacism or blood lust amongst the troops and officers I have been in contact with, not this war or any other conflict the last 11 years. So, for you to suggest that the US military's professionalism is comparable to that of suicide bombers is a bit of a stretch for me. And I'm not questioning their motives or their validity, but the average American simply does not fight with the same motivations drilled into young men who blow themselves up.

[DougShrapnel]

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Subject: Re: War and relegion


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Do you see any 16-year olds in the American military strapping on bombs and blowing themselves up?

And I don't think their suicide bombers are paid $60k/year and given the level of training as our troops, thus uts reasonable to assume they have different motivations.


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Kid, i don't think i wish to argue with you becuse you are in the military. You are actually putting your life on the line for what you believe in, and that demands respect.


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No, I'm not. I'm in grad school as a military officer and respect those actually doing the job.

But being in the military, I can tell you that there is not a fanatacism or blood lust amongst the troops and officers I have been in contact with, not this war or any other conflict the last 11 years. So, for you to suggest that the US military's professionalism is comparable to that of suicide bombers is a bit of a stretch for me. And I'm not questioning their motives or their validity, but the average American simply does not fight with the same motivations drilled into young men who blow themselves up.


[/ QUOTE ] The discussion is useless for me, since you are in the military. The thought of we are right and they are wrong is required by your profession. However civilians are afforded the luxory of being able to determine which parts of each culture are right, and where we are wrong.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
Im not. I was simply stating a fact. you should look that word up before using it so liberaly.


[/ QUOTE ] I used the word correctly.

[ QUOTE ]
stop posting here as you are not adding anything constructive nor using an open mind in this argument. also you are getting off topic.

[/ QUOTE ] Perhaps my positng here will one day lead me to be able to add something contructive to the discussion.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im not. I was simply stating a fact. you should look that word up before using it so liberaly.


[/ QUOTE ] I used the word correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]
i said liberaly.

[DougShrapnel]

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Im not. I was simply stating a fact. you should look that word up before using it so liberaly.



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I used the word correctly.


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i said liberaly.

I'm always disappointed when a good dicussion resorts to name calling. In your oppinion when was the last time america did anything wrong?

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]

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Im not. I was simply stating a fact. you should look that word up before using it so liberaly.



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I used the word correctly.


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i said liberaly.

I'm always disappointed when a good dicussion resorts to name calling. In your oppinion when was the last time america did anything wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

you are doing the name calling. btw im not some super conservitive america lover.

but im also not a retarded hippy who only belives what he wants to belive.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
In your oppinion when was the last time america did anything wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
you are doing the name calling. btw im not some super conservitive america lover.

but im also not a retarded hippy who only belives what he wants to belive.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's cool that you seem to have found a middle ground between utlra conservatism and hippie retardism. But my conjecture was that you are under the belief that America is always right, and I would like you to disprove me so we can continue the conversation. And don't say vietnam, unless you wish to go on a tangent about how we actually won the war in nam.

Ah lets go there anyway it sounds fun.

America doesn't really care so much about the vietnamese people. The war in vietnam, was really a war to contain atheist communism. This containment was the actual war and not the battle of whether or not vietnam fell to conmunism. The war in vietnam had contries scared to revolt to communism for fear of USA interference. If these contries would have gone communist they likely would have helped the USSR with trade relations and strengh in numbers. There are currently only 5 contries left under communist rule. So not only was the vietnam war a success in containment, it stemed the tide of a political movement that was sweeping europe and eventually most of the globe, and was victorious in not only containing but also to start to start the attrition of communist state. Is it possible to lose the battle of vietnam, yet win the war on containment. I think it is, and as far as I know no one else has agreed with me.

[ QUOTE ]
The thought of we are right and they are wrong is required by your profession. However civilians are afforded the luxory of being able to determine which parts of each culture are right, and where we are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said we were right or they were wrong. In fact, I said the following: And I'm not questioning their motives or their validity, but the average American simply does not fight with the same motivations drilled into young men who blow themselves up. Please don't start assuming that such a statement implies that we are right and they are wrong, only that we are fighting with different motivations, which seems quite obvious and non-judgmental to me, personally.

[DougShrapnel]

[ QUOTE ]
And I'm not questioning their motives or their validity, but the average American simply does not fight with the same motivations drilled into young men who blow themselves up

[/ QUOTE ] Firstly, thanks for defending this great nation.

But as to the motivation of men who are suicide bombers, the evidence points directly to the leadership. However the people that are the suicide aren't normaly brainwashed 16 year old kids. They are well educated, and well off. Additionaly, suicide bombings only take place during occupation.

Thirdly I can only assume young americans fight for the greatness of this nation, and the benefits they recieve from the military.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]

But my conjecture was that you are under the belief that America is always right...

[/ QUOTE ]

what on earth gave you that idea?

[DougShrapnel]

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what on earth gave you that idea?

[/ QUOTE ] Not sure how I got the idea, one of your posts lead me to believe it. Are you suggesting I should just believe your denial of it.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what on earth gave you that idea?

[/ QUOTE ] Not sure how I got the idea, one of your posts lead me to believe it. Are you suggesting I should just believe your denial of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

which post? not sure how u got the idea? maybe you should stop speculating out of your ass.

[DougShrapnel]

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which post? not sure how u got the idea? maybe you should stop speculating out of your ass.

[/ QUOTE ] Who cares which posts either it's true or it isn't. I don't think it's as big a deal as you do.

I don't mind speculation, I don't mind being wrong. If my flaws are pointed out I am happy to know them. I don't have the benefit of knowing anything about you, so I'm forced to make some speculation.

I still don't know if you always side with country or not, but I do know that you don't argue well (pot kettle).

[SomethingClever]

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[ QUOTE ]
what on earth gave you that idea?

[/ QUOTE ] Not sure how I got the idea, one of your posts lead me to believe it. Are you suggesting I should just believe your denial of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol x 1000

Trust pizownored on this one.

[DougShrapnel]

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lol x 1000

Trust pizownored on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]
no worries

[ QUOTE ]
But as to the motivation of men who are suicide bombers, the evidence points directly to the leadership. However the people that are the suicide aren't normaly brainwashed 16 year old kids. They are well educated, and well off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. The sidebar was precipitated by the claim that there are religious motivations on their side, and I stated that they had mainly political motivations (which is why America is the primary enemy, and not just any non-Muslim nation) while religion was more an instrument to fan the flames of hatred. It seems we are basically full circle and in basic agreement.