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View Full Version : Open Letter to TWP on 6-Max: You got me into this...(NC)


09-21-2005, 03:14 PM
Dear TWP:

I heeded your advice to switch from $50 full ring to $50 6 max. It was good advice. Recently, I made the jump from $50 to $100, started at full ring, where I have been doing well, and have just taken up $100 6 Max.

I was doing pretty well at $50 full ring. I did better at $50 six max. I am doing well at $100 full ring. But I am getting slaughtered at $100 6 max. No, that's not right; when you get slaughtered, you're cut up into pretty big parts, and what is happeneing to me is much worse than that. I am getting sliced, diced and julienned at $100 6 max. These guys are leaving me as a pureed, sticky, bloody pool of unrecognizable paste that my wife keeps having to mop up off the floor.

You got me into this, bub, so please, for the love of all that is holy, help me get out of it before the bloody remnants of my carcass permanently stain the carpet.

I actually have some specific questions that I hope you and everybody else can answer:

I am fairly consistently seeing huge overbets or huge raises. For example, an unraised pot, flop comes down giving me top pair, good or top kicker. I bet, villain raises, I call. Turn looks like a blank, but villain busts out a bet or raise (depending on position, of course) of maybe 6 times the size of the pot. WTF? While this was an unusual play at $50, I have faced this probably 30 times in 1000 hands or so at $100 6 max. Any advice? At the fifties, this was a bluff as often as it was the nuts, and you just had to go with your read. Is it different at $100?

Preflop, Villain open raises for 10-40bb. WTF?

Preflop, Villain open pushes. Double WTF?

Please, please please, offer me some general guidelines on playing middle pair.

Similarly, how do you play, say, T8s when the flop comes 668? How do you play it when the flop comes JJ8?

More importantly, do you generally expect to lay this down in the face of strong resistance from anybody, or only to a decent, tight player?

KQo (as a proxy for all easily dominated hands)in EP is reraised by an average 6 max player. Fold?

KQo in LP: call a raise from an average player in EP? In MP?

These are only a few of my questions, but they will suffice for now. Any help greatly appreciated, TWP (or anybody else).

Sincerely,
The fishy smelling pool of paste that used to be mpethybridge

PokerFink
09-21-2005, 03:29 PM
Dear mpethy,

Which site is this?

Sincerely,
Pokerfink

09-21-2005, 03:32 PM
Party

dtbog
09-21-2005, 03:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Turn looks like a blank, but villain busts out a bet or raise (depending on position, of course) of maybe 6 times the size of the pot. WTF? While this was an unusual play at $50, I have faced this probably 30 times in 1000 hands or so at $100 6 max. Any advice? At the fifties, this was a bluff as often as it was the nuts, and you just had to go with your read. Is it different at $100?

Preflop, Villain open raises for 10-40bb. WTF?

Preflop, Villain open pushes. Double WTF?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say, I've played quite a few hands of NL 100 6max and I've almost never run across these strange plays, but my standard procedure is to fold hands like TPTK to these huge bets. There will be better spots -- I like to remind myself that even if I'm ahead, I'm likely drawing dead against the monsters he could hold (set, straight, etc...) and he's very possibly drawing very live against me if I'm actually ahead (flush draw+pair, etc).

If I have a read, I'll make the correct play -- but if I'm guessing, I tend to err against putting in my whole stack with TPTK against an admitted unknown.

These are all very player-dependent, though; I have countless players on my buddy list from NL $50 to NL $400, accompanied by notes and PT data. Once I recognize a pattern, I'll write it down. If a certain player makes a lot of these gross overbets and shows down nothing but flush draws, then I'll remember this; same if he shows down the nuts. Once you recognize the patterns, these are the most probable opponents in these games.

[ QUOTE ]

Similarly, how do you play, say, T8s when the flop comes 668? How do you play it when the flop comes JJ8?

[/ QUOTE ]

At 6max, profiling your opponents is even more important than at a full ring table; keep the pot small and watch what your opponents are doing. Maybe play fewer tables, if this will help.

[ QUOTE ]

KQo (as a proxy for all easily dominated hands)in EP is reraised by an average 6 max player. Fold?

KQo in LP: call a raise from an average player in EP? In MP?


[/ QUOTE ]

Player-dependent.

I'm sure as hell not folding if the guy raises 40% of his hands... and I'm sure as hell not calling if the guy raises 4%. You don't need concrete PT data for this -- just imagine being at a live table and watching how tight the players are. You're going to get a feel pretty quickly for your opponents' preflop standards... adjust accordingly.

Since 6max features a lot more hand reading and player profiling than full ring, I wonder if you haven't dedicated enough time to these aspects of your game (at least online).
How many tables are you playing at a time? Try playing just one, and watching each player like a hawk. I think you'll find that your decisions become correct more often, and your play more profitable as a result.

hope that helps... I'm sorry about the downswing. Poker is a bitch sometimes.

TheWorstPlayer
09-21-2005, 03:38 PM
For your next thousand hands, always fold one pair hands to a raise. I bet your results improve dramatically. And preflop limp/fold KQ in EP. Raise/fold it in MP and LP. I'll look at the rest of your post later, pretty busy now. Sorry to hear about bad results at 100s. Keep your head up and I'm sure it will turn around. People are still quite passive at the 100s though so don't expect people to raise with draws and other hands worse than 1 pair.

PokerFink
09-21-2005, 03:46 PM
I play NL100 sixmax on Stars. Here goes...

[ QUOTE ]
These guys are leaving me as a pureed, sticky, bloody pool of unrecognizable paste that my wife keeps having to mop up off the floor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nicely put.

[ QUOTE ]
I am fairly consistently seeing huge overbets or huge raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't see this very often. If anything, the majority of the players underbet the pot chronically.

My standard way of dealing with gross overbets is that I assume the player is pulling a move of honor until I have a reason to believe otherwise. Doesn't mean I'm laying down mid set on a ragged flop, but I'm definitely folding anything worse than top two.

This is very dependent on the stack size of my opponent. I'm not laying down tpgk for an 8 dollar push on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Please, please please, offer me some general guidelines on playing middle pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't. Unless you know the other player is stabbing at the pot. Then call, get heads up, and lead the turn for a PSB. Stop n Go works wonders.

[ QUOTE ]
Similarly, how do you play, say, T8s when the flop comes 668? How do you play it when the flop comes JJ8?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check flop. Lead safe turn. Shut down from there.

[ QUOTE ]
More importantly, do you generally expect to lay this down in the face of strong resistance from anybody, or only to a decent, tight player?

[/ QUOTE ]

Anybody. I have maybe four dollars invested in the hand. Why bother?

[ QUOTE ]
KQo (as a proxy for all easily dominated hands)in EP is reraised by an average 6 max player. Fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, unless you know villian is a total donkey. I don't call raises with KQo in EP anyway, so I'm sure as [censored] not calling a re-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
KQo in LP: call a raise from an average player in EP? In MP?

[/ QUOTE ]

LP: Only if villian has a reasonably high PFR%. Not in EP/MP. KQo is a big time trouble hand.

amoeba
09-21-2005, 03:47 PM
abc the 100 6maxes and I bet you do fine. keep in mind pot control and reads.

the level of aggression needed to be a great winning player at 6 max is often overestimated because a good LAG is the sexy thing to be.

and you should probably fold/limp KQo in EP in 6 max. Raise from EP only if table is weak tight (folds AQ, AJ to preflop raises).

good luck.

09-21-2005, 03:53 PM
dtbog:

Thanks for an outstanding reply. I suspect my hand reading skills are, in fact, the main part of the problem from my end. I'll keep working on improving them. Your suggestion to take careful notes is a good one I will incorporate immediately; I think PT has maybe made me a little lazy about it.

MP

amoeba
09-21-2005, 03:58 PM
as to your questions regarding middle pair, my default is to check the flop if its multiway and fire on the turn if my pair is still 2nd pair.

on the T8s on a 668 or JJ8 board, just check fold the flop in both instances.

yes, overcards get a free shot at hitting their 6 outer, oh well. its not worth it to get crazy trying to protect the pot as its not really yours yet. at the 100 level people don't pay enough attention and you don't have enough hands with them to make betting the flop with only trips detrimental. basically if a flop bet from you only means trips, its fine. they'll call. you don't get any additional shania but increasing your flop bet range, IMO.