Jacks

[kyro]

2 JJ hands here. PP55. Converter is useless. If someone has another one they use, great. Assume no reads, as I had minimal ones that really don't apply here.

Hand 1: (50/100) 9 players left.
UTG: 1785
UTG+1: 455
Hero: 1275

UTG raises to 300. UTG+1 pushes for 455 total. Folded to me in the SB with JJ. My play?

Hand 2: (25/50) 9 players left.

UTG: 990
MP: 970
Hero: 950

UTG raises to 250. MPish calls. Folded to me in SB with JJ. My play?


In both hands, assume blinds don't go up for at least 5 more hands. Thanks.

[brimstone1]

1. Fold, you have 12 BB and you're in the SB. He will most likely be called by the original raiser and you have no position. Let it go.

2. Fold, you have no position and that is a ridiculous raise by UTG, just let them do what they have to do. You're in no hurry in lvl 3 at that point.

[kyro]

In hand 1, my position is really meaningless. Calling is not an option unless I planned on SnGing it but this isn't the place IMO.

[zambonidrivr]

Both hands are tough. ugggggg.
I am inclined to push both, thinking I am a 4:1 fav 40% of the time, and even money against 2 overs 60% of the time. In both cases, your getting 3 to 1, and you do have FE so I like the push. The only think that makes me nervouse is the UTG raise in both cases.... in which case, any reads would be valuable. In the end I am pushing both, but not overly thrilled about it.

Sorry you lost both.

J

[tshort]

1) I think this depends on read of UTG. I think Stop-N-Go would be bad (I wouldn't push w/ A/K/Q on flop). The only play you can make is to push pre-flop, bu tI would probably fold.

2) I would definitely fold. Laugh when you see 88 vs AJ.

[Edit]These could both change with different player reads.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

I think even I can fold JJ here in both hands (when I am on my game).

Hand #1 - both villain's are in EP = stronger hand. UTG has you covered. Both villains probably have either overs and/or pocket pairs. You are in pretty good shape w/ 13xbb... fold.

Hand #2 - 5xbb raise and a cold call, blinds are small, you're in good shape w/ 19xbb... fold.

[zambonidrivr]

I was a 8-tabling maniac for about 6 months on the $20's... and was never able to make reads (duh); and played situations and basic ABC poker. Went on a bad run, cut it down to 3 tables, and holy [censored], itm and roi shot up (only over 300 tournies). now that i have the roll in check, i am 2-tabling the $50's and lovin it.

not sure how anyone can 50 table and make any reads; i certainly couldn't and have had much better success dual tabling... with maybe a larger MTT running up top.

[zambonidrivr]

Your right. I am of the shool that I would rather push any2 in position, than make a call like this. This kind of laydown has helped my game out emensly. In a $10, I think this is an instant push, $50's others seem to know what they are doing.

[DarrenX]

Tough- /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

It's close, but I like a push in hand 1, given UTG's range AQ+, 88+ and ss 55+, Ax+, KT+.

Hand 2 I'm folding, although as one poster pointed out you're ahead more than you'd think. The deciding factor for me being I don't think you have any FE here against these players. If they made a typical 3x blind raise with one caller I'd push.

[kyro]

After thinking about it some more, I really think Hand 1 is a tossup between pushing and folding. I'm way ahead of shorty's range, but I think I'm about 50-50 with UTG. If I push though, he might fold hands like 88/99, but then again, if he's raising with those hands, it's unlikely. Hand 2 is a clear fold the more I think about. Few people cold call 5BB/.25 of their stack with marginal hands. Anyways here are the results.

Hand 1: I folded. UTG had AQ, UTG+1 had Ax (x<J)

Hand 2: I folded. UTG had JJ, MP had AT!

[bigt439]

Wow I'm really surprised with the replies. Hand #1 is a very easy push. I can't believe anyone, let alone several people, said to fold. It would be a terrible fold IMO.

Hand #2 is alot closer and I would go to reads on it. Without reads my default would be to push but I wouldn't love it. The cold caller doesn't really scare me that much, and the slightly above average raise might push me over the edge to pushing, but I'd like reads for sure.

[kyro]

I don't like your reply because you have no reasons for disagreeing with anyone. Why would you push hand 2. Try putting them on hands before you get push happy.

[tshort]

I think bigt is right about the first hand. I calculated you should expect to win about t100 pushing. I set UTG calling range at 88+, AJs+, AQ+, KQs. I assumed UTG would call 75% of his original raising hands. I assumed short stack would have 55+, A9s+, AT+, KJ+, QJs.


I think 2nd hand is still a fold ... especially without reads. If either the original raiser or the cold caller has a tight range, pushing would be -EV. At best, I think this is slight +EV. Not worth it without reads.

I can't honestly say since I dunno how people generally play at PP55s.

1) With no reads, I'd lean towards a push, and a fairly easy one at that. I can't give UTG+1 any credit for his all-in obviously since he's so shortstacked and mostly simply be looking for umbrella cover by the raiser, and I really can't say that I'm in bad shape against UTG either.

2) This hand is read-dependent. With no reads, I'm folding. UTG looks like he has queens, but I honestly don't care about that as much as a cold call for 5 times the big blind from MP. MP is either stupid or has AA-KK-QQ.

Actually, your deduction is exactly why I think it's a fairly easy push for hand #1. If it's a tossup against UTG(which I agree with), then you should push. He will possibly fold. Even if you get called you're very, very likely a coin flip. I don't advocate diving into coin flips, but the fact that you're probably a solid favorite against the shorty adds to your pot odds plus the fact that the other guy may fold.

[Irieguy]

Geez, if you aren't insta-folding both of these hands you are leaking worse than if you fail to consider a misclick when somebody min-bets.

Irieguy

especially minbets on the turn

[Taraz]

[ QUOTE ]
Geez, if you aren't insta-folding both of these hands you are leaking worse than if you fail to consider a misclick when somebody min-bets.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I knew what this meant. I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not. I'm guaranteed to interpret it the wrong way. I hate JJ by the way.

[Taraz]

I was going to say to push both of these, but the more I think about it the worse of a play that seems without reads. UTG raises worry me.

In Hand 2 a read would change my play completely though. Has MP cold called raises with subpar hands before? If he has I would probably push and try to squeeze the original raiser out.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Geez, if you aren't insta-folding both of these hands you are leaking worse than if you fail to consider a misclick when somebody min-bets.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]


I wish I knew what this meant. I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not. I'm guaranteed to interpret it the wrong way. I hate JJ by the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was an allusion to a funny statement by NoahSD: misclick leak (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3410347&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

My point is that you should fold those without thinking twice.

Irieguy