Ants and Christians: redux

Below is the reply I made in the "Do ants see humans as gods" thread. I think the OP's thread should have generated some discussion, for it is a very valid point (which I tried to illustrate). Namely, the ability of humans to understand the motives, evaluate the goodness, believe in future benefits from, and communicate with a supreme being may essentially be no different than the ability of ants to understand OUR motives or goodness, or be able to communicate with us. Everything about us can be "god-like" from their vantage point, and thus they *could* interpret that to mean we are omniscient, omnipotent, and just judges, and they are there to serve in awe of us. However, they would obviously be terribly mistaken, but they would never know because they could never know anything beyond their limited soil-based universe. I think those of "faith" who fail to at least consider these analogies are choosing to live in denial.

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I am declaring myself to be the almighty, omnipotent, and just ruler of the ants. I will be referred to as Antweh.

The ants see me as all-powerful. I can create stuff from seemingly nothing -- stuff no ant could ever understand, like big piles of dirt (mountains to ants), or huge holes in the yard (giant canyons), or even toss a fork or earring on the ground to really wow them out. They are in fear and awe of this almighty power. If I will it, I can wipe out whole ant colonies.

However, with this almighty power, many ants believe I also have infinite love for them. A group of ants wrote a book many generations ago (like 15 years or something which is a long time for an ant). This book detailed how I, the human god Antweh, demanded that ants devote their lives to serving me. And it also told the story about how I sent my own dog (the Dog of God) to live as an ant. The Dog of God, in ant form, tried to teach the ants how to live according to his master's doctrine. Being a much superior beast to the ants, the Dog of God was able to perform miracles such as loud barking which shook the ant homes with its thunder. The ruling ants at the time were threatened by the Dog of God's teachings and he was executed. But this sacrifice was supposedly my gift to the ants. By the blood of the Dog of God, the sins of the antworld could be forgiven. The teachings of the so-called Dog of God were spread by the true ant believers, who set up ant churches to worship me. To this day, thousands of ants across my yard pray to me and seek salvation. For those who accept the Dog of God as their personal savior, eternal life is presumably promised, and they will rise out of their ant bodies and live as god-like humans. The ant church teaches that the non-believing ants will be scorched by eternal fire (I do have a fire pit in my backyard).

Of course, despite the prayers of thousands of ants each day, I don't really answer -- or even hear -- any of them. I just go about my human god-like life, squishing some ants here, running some over with the lawn mower there. In fact, I don't really care about the ants at all, and if I had any wish it would be for them to just enjoy their short ant lives as best they can, just like I am trying to do with my supreme-being life as a human -- but don't tell that to the ant priests.

--kidluckee
God of Ants

[BluffTHIS!]

2 words that get around your pseudo-sophisticate arguement that is nothing other than a rehash of various conceptions of an uncaring god that philosphers in ages past have hypothesized.

Here's the 2 words:

DIVINE REVELATION

We don't communicate to the ants our motives and intentions and knowledge of ourselves because they are incapable of understanding even if we did. However humans, being sentient beings, are capable of understanding what God reveals to us.

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However humans, being sentient beings, are capable of understanding what God reveals to us.

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Or so you think. Just like the ants think they have us figured out, too.

P.S. It's a bit hypocritical to say that ants are not sentient enough to understand the motivations and desires of humans (I agree), but then say that humans indeed are sentient enough to understand the motivations and desires of an omniscient being that resides outside the physical universe. Don't you see that?

[Jeff V]

Kid-

What a well thought out coherent post. EXCEPT ANTS CAN"T THINK!! They are not self-aware. Let alone the 527 other problems with your little book.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. /images/graemlins/grin.gif(Billy Madison)

All hail the god of the ants!!

[Piers]

I think you have it round the wrong way, in that I would consider that it is the believers that define a God not the God itself. So if you could show that there was an ant whose feeling towards you mirrored those of a human towards his/her God, then you would be justified to some extent. However I do not think ants emotional profile is close enough to humans for this to happen.

You would have a much easier task of convincing me if you claimed you were a shepherd.

I was getting at the fact that ants *think* I am a god from their vantage point. In fact, I am not nor do I care about them. Just like humans *think* there is an omniscient god that loves them and cares about them, but who (if he exists) may care as much about them as I do the ants.

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What a well thought out coherent post. EXCEPT ANTS CAN"T THINK!! They are not self-aware.

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Apparently, speaking in parables is a but too subtle for some.

Incidentally, I think this analogy is not so unreasonable in terms of thinking capacity:

ants are to humans as humans are to omniscient gods

[Jeff V]

"ants are to humans as humans are to omniscient gods"

That is your opinion, which you are definately entitled to. I just happen to think you are way far off base.

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"ants are to humans as humans are to omniscient gods"

That is your opinion, which you are definately entitled to. I just happen to think you are way far off base.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, then enlighten me as to how close human thinking is to that of omnipotent, omniscient, supreme beings.

[Piers]

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I was getting at the fact that ants *think* I am a god from their vantage point. In fact, I am not nor do I care about them. Just like humans *think* there is an omniscient god that loves them and cares about them, but who (if he exists) may care as much about them as I do the ants.

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Yes, I know.

The point I was making is that an Ants mind is so far removed from a human’s mind that I suspect they are unable to have a comparable feelings of worship to that which a human feels towards his or her God.

However it is possible that sheep might, and I am fairly certain that chips could.

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The point I was making is that an Ants mind is so far removed from a human’s mind that I suspect they are unable to have a comparable feelings of worship to that which a human feels towards his or her God.

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Parable.

[BluffTHIS!]

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P.S. It's a bit hypocritical to say that ants are not sentient enough to understand the motivations and desires of humans (I agree), but then say that humans indeed are sentient enough to understand the motivations and desires of an omniscient being that resides outside the physical universe. Don't you see that?

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't really read my post and the TWO WORDS. It is God's DIVINE REVELATION to us that allows us to know so much about Him, not just our attempts as limited beings to try on our own to understand an unlimited being. And although more intelligent animals like dogs and cats can understand our motivations and intentions toward them to some degree, insects can't. Keep throwing rocks at a dog and he'll stop coming up on your porch most likely. Keep trying to step on ants and they won't get the message unless it's a chemical one derived from knowing others of their species have met an unfavorable end at a certain spot.

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It is God's DIVINE REVELATION to us that allows us to know so much about Him, not just our attempts as limited beings to try on our own to understand an unlimited being.

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The concept of divine revelation IS an attempt of limited beings to understand an unlimited being. Still don't see that?

[BluffTHIS!]

And can't you see that it is an attempt based on information supplied by the divine being and not just on their own reasoning? Or that ants are not capable reasoning or even of stimulus/response to as great a degree as more intelligent animals?

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And can't you see that it is an attempt based on information supplied by the divine being and not just on their own reasoning?

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See, this is how any religious discussion breaks down and why the debate is probably futile. When a religious person makes a claim that cannot be supported (such as humans didn't reason out God, he just used "divine revelation" to make himself known, and rather selectively at that), the religious just throw out some buzzword that magically solves all problems with their argument.

I believe that the world was created by a unicorn. If we get into a discussion of the details, I'll just say that the unicorn "divinely revealed" itself to me.

[BluffTHIS!]

In fact I don't normally take the truth of the bible as one of my premises for that reason as do so many protestants. However, even if you presuppose no divine revelation, a sentient being will still be able to make rational inferences about a creator or a being superior to it which non-sentient creatures such as ants can't do.

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In fact I don't normally take the truth of the bible as one of my premises for that reason as do so many protestants. However, even if you presuppose no divine revelation, a sentient being will still be able to make rational inferences about a creator or a being superior to it which non-sentient creatures such as ants can't do.

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The ants reference is a parable, get over it. The point is that how can a being on this planet be expected to understand the motives and desires of an omniscient (and thus not anywhere near our limited level of thinking) that exists outside our physical universe. You just claim that we can without any rational basis for this. Dogs are somewhat sentient beings, but they can't understand humans and what our purposes are, and we live in the same environment as them, let alone beyond their universe.

[BluffTHIS!]

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Dogs are sentient beings, but can they understand humans and what our purposes are?

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Look up the meaning of "sentient". It is not sufficient merely to possess a certain degree of intelligence to be labeled sentient.

Also, although I said I don't usually take as a premise the truth of the bible in debate with non-believers, it is still rational to believer that if God exists, then he wants his creatures to know and understand him, and precisely because of their limitations in being able to do that on their own, would choose to reveal knowledge about himself.

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it is still rational to believer that if God exists, then he wants his creatures to know and understand him,

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Merely an unfounded assumption.

When you set up an aquarium to observe fish because they are interesting to you, is it because you want the fish to know and undersatnd you?