TT in a giant pot

[wrto4556]

$15-30 at the Bellagio.

UTG is pretty good from what Ive seen. MP1 is really loose passive. CO is too loose also but not as bad (30%vpip id guess). Button thinks hes good but hes not.

I get two black tens in MP2.

UTG raises, MP1 calls, I 3-bet, CO reluctantly calls telling me hes got a good hand, too, Button throws the chips in like its his job, UTG 4-bets and everyone calls.

(20sb) Flop is 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif,5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif,7 /images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG bets, MP1 calls, I call, CO calls, Button calls.

(12BB) 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG bets, MP1 calls, I?

[jason_t]

What's the turn card?

[wrto4556]

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What's the turn card?

[/ QUOTE ]

I fixed it. It was the 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[wrto4556]

I kind of think raising is a bad option because if we get 3-bet we most likely have to call for our 2 outter. It seems like we would get 3-bet often with the board and preflop action. But I cant fold, can i? How bad is calling?

[jason_t]

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UTG is pretty good from what Ive seen.

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It's hard to see him leading two streets with something you beat, but I'd hate to fold in this insane pot. I'm not raising. I'm probably not folding, but it might be right.

So, I think calling down is okay.

Tough hand. I hope someone else can say something more intelligent.

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UTG is pretty good from what Ive seen.

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It's hard to see him leading two streets with something you beat,

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I agree with this, but at the same time... if UTG was that good, wouldn't he have been smarter for a check-raise with a good hand? I mean, with a single bet, he's giving everyone the correct pot odds to call these bets with nothing who might very well draw out on him. I could see this line if he flopped quad 5s and wants callers, but then the pre-flop action doesn't make sense.

I'd call down as well, I guess.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

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UTG is pretty good from what Ive seen.

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It's hard to see him leading two streets with something you beat,

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I agree with this, but at the same time... if UTG was that good, wouldn't he have been smarter for a check-raise with a good hand? I mean, with a single bet, he's giving everyone the correct pot odds to call these bets with nothing who might very well draw out on him. I could see this line if he flopped quad 5s and wants callers, but then the pre-flop action doesn't make sense.

I'd call down as well, I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whats wrong with betting the best hand? Especially when you don't know where a bet is going to come from anyways?

I put him on an overpair here which beats your tens so it's an easy fold here to me. With all these folks in the pot I have a hard time seeing you end up taking this one down.

If it where just down to you two guys, I would recommend a raise here and if he calls and still bets on the river it's a fold.

[winky51]

Check raise the flop? Who's going to bet that flop, a 68?

Betting the flop with the best hand is right.

Him betting into 4 callers on the turn is the hint-and-1/2 for your ass that he has a larger pair most of the time. Hes not capping 99 preflop out of position.

[ErrantNight]

why would you raise headsup if you put your opponent on a better hand? so that you could fold for one more bet as opposed to showing down?

[Bodhi]

straightforward 'wait-for-the-turn' raise scenario? Unless utg has AK of diamonds, though, you don't seem to be in very good shape. Still, the pot is way too big to fold an overpair, so I like raising.

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straightforward 'wait-for-the-turn' raise scenario?

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I think it is not straightforward b/c we are very likely behind UTG. Shillx made some very nice posts about this down in Micros, and I have come to agree with him. Basically why try to protect our hand from the people behind us if UTG has AA. We want them padding the pot if our hand happens to be good, on the chance that UTG (like A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or something) is betting a hand we beat.

[Bodhi]

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on the chance that AA is betting a hand we beat.

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Care to clarify this statement?

[jskills]

Why no flop raise?

Given the line you took, I think you have to raise the turn. If 3-bet I call down from there. It's very difficulth though, since you're likely up against an overpair or AKs.

Regardless, you need to get to showdown, but it would be preferable to do so without so many people coming along (I'd hate to see johnny calling station make a crappy straight given this board).

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on the chance that AA is betting a hand we beat.

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Care to clarify this statement?

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Changed it. Not sure if the line right or wrong, just wanted to see what people think. More of a case can be made for a raise if UTG is kind of passive and will allow us to take a showdown UI. But based on the preflop action, if UTG is good, and likely knows we have an overpair, so if he does have AA or KK I think we are getting 3 bet.

So who knows, online 2/4 I'm seeing a showdown against an unknown but want to do it as cheaply as possible. In this case I might be able to find a fold. FWIW I raise the flop as I think it makes this decision a lot easier.

[Bodhi]

Yes, those are some good points, and I'm certainly open to changing my mind about raising this turn. I just wonder if this is one of those cases where calling is worse than raising or folding.

Here is a link to Shillx's posts in response to a hand I posted that is very similar to the one in OP.

Link to Shillx's posts (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3416933&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a link to Shillx's posts in response to a hand I posted that is very similar to the one in OP.

Link to Shillx's posts (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3416933&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the link.
I called down and lost to KK.

[jason_t]

So I put some more thought into this hand. After he 4-bets preflop and leads two streets I think we're looking at

AK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif - 1 combo
AA - 6 combos
KK - 6 combos
QQ - 6 combos

so it's 18:1 that we're losing and a turn fold is prudent.