$11: flopped flush, horrible turn

[45suited]

Played a couple 11s tonight before going to bed. Villain had a bigstack and was making some pretty loose calls. Given that, should I have just C/R'd all-in on the flop? I wanted to get some value and I was giving way incorrect odds to draw. Any non-club, I'm pushing the turn of course. Have to check fold the turn though, right?


Comments on flop and turn welcome.

Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: mmesq ( $1675 )
Seat 3: Quinnlee ( $1804 )
Seat 4: Pupienus ( $355 )
Seat 5: Smutty69691 ( $745 )
Seat 7: HERO ( $845 )
Seat 8: pete620 ( $800 )
Seat 9: fouronetwo ( $1001 )
Seat 10: dcrjunior ( $775 )

Blinds(10/15)

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ 2c 8c ]
fouronetwo folds.
dcrjunior folds.
mmesq folds.
Quinnlee calls [15].
Pupienus folds.
Smutty69691 folds.
HERO calls [5].
pete620 checks.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 3c, 6c, Qc ]

HERO checks.
pete620 checks.
Quinnlee bets [100].
HERO raises [400].
pete620 folds.
Quinnlee calls [300].

** Dealing Turn ** [ 7c ]
HERO checks.
Quinnlee bets [475].
HERO folds.
Quinnlee does not show cards.
Quinnlee wins 1320 chips

[durron597]

Yuck, your stack size is really ugly here. Plus you can't guarantee that the guy in the middle will make such a big bet, allowing you to make a large checkraise.

I think this is actually a spot where I would lead out with an overbet. It doesn't really look like a made flush yet would assist in making a small pot on the flop become a place where you can push if you get raised. So I am leading out 50-60 chips here, and then pushing over any raise.

If I just get called, then I haven't invested too much if another club hits on the turn so I lose less the times it does.

[45suited]

The lead out makes sense, but I had a read that he had 'chip drunk bigstack disease'. I felt like I could get more out of him by C/R'ing than by leading out.

I was pretty certain that he would bet based upon his play in the few hands up to this point in the game.

It is usually my style to simply bet my good hands, but low level guys are so afraid of flushes that if I bet, I'm afraid that I won't get any action. If I check (with the chip drunk bigstack in the hand), I felt like I could induce a bet and C/R. The plan worked, until the terrible turn. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

I was pretty certain that he would bet based upon his play in the few hands up to this point in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is true then he doesn't have to have a club here to make that turn bet. Given that you are getting 3:1 on a call it's a must call.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
If this is true then he doesn't have to have a club here to make that turn bet. Given that you are getting 3:1 on a call it's a must call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh... the main point of my post. Let's say that I plan on C/R'ing the flop. We can all agree that he made a horrible call assuming that he had a lone club.

There is still only a 1/6 chance that another club falls on the turn. Say I plan on check - folding any club turn. It's still correct to C/R the flop with that plan in mind, even if he is capable of bluffing me out of the pot when a club falls on the turn. (The reason I did not C/R all-in was NOT so that I could have a safety net for a club turn, but rather because I was afraid that he would not call a push. Perhaps he would have though.)

But given the fact that a club DID fall on the turn, I believe that check-folding is the correct play. I still had t430 left behind on level 1, which to me, is not a desperate situation. It's one thing to be pot committed, quite another to be likely drawing dead and making a crying call. Why call off my stack when the chances of drawing dead are so high?

[45suited]

bump for the morning crowd, maybe this hand is obvious, hence few responses... sorry if it's a boring post. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[unfrgvn]

I don't think it's boring, it's a hard question. I think the last line of your previous post would be my thinking:

[ QUOTE ]

Why call off my stack when the chances of drawing dead are so high?


[/ QUOTE ]

You are either way ahead or drawing dead, the river doesn't matter. If you had more chips a blocking bet would in order, but can't see a way to do that with your chip stack. If you hate playing a short stack then check/call on the theory that by checking you are inducing a bluff. If you think you can come back from here, fold and move on.

[kyro]

that's the way
uh huh uh huh
i like it

sucky turn card though. well played.

whoops, i didn't see your check at first. i lead this pot usually.

[45suited]

Here's my reason for the C/R:

Basically on the flop, it's a 'nothing' pot (t45).

If I bet, I allow the other guys to either fold or draw cheaply with one high club.

If I check, I felt that I would induce bigstack to take a stab at the pot, hopefully with an overbet, which he did. I can then C/R him and get him to make a bad call.

The C/R seemed like the best way to build a big pot.

If, on what I felt was the off chance bigstack didn't bet and a 4th club falls on the turn, well, it sucks, but I lost out on a nothing pot. Not a huge deal.

[kyro]

But by betting maybe you can get the big stack to raise you and now your money is all in.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

1st, I don't like the pf complete w/ this hand. Yes... I know... only t5 to call, but this is the type of hand that just gets you into trouble... as it did here. pf... what are you hoping to flop... probably 2 pair or a set... a flush is tricky to play b/c it is so weak (and so unlikely to flop)

On the flop... not sure how to play... maybe a little FPS is in order here... and possibly cheaper than your CR. Check and call flop... maybe he will think you are slow playing and check turn and river. Since you know your flush is weak w/ 4 on the board just be happy to survive the hand.

[45suited]

So I guess the consensus is that the C/R on the flop was bad. That seems odd considering that I managed to build a big pot while at the same time giving villain terribly incorrect odds. But the forum has spoken. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

FWIW, I am confident that the fold on the turn was correct. Playing with a shortish stack at the early blind levels does not put me into panic mode. I had t430 after folding. Came back in the SNG to take 2nd.