2nd nut high, need a plan

[sy_or_bust]

UB 4/8 half-killed to 6/12. Game is generally quite loose and a somewhat wild in kill pots.

I am in the SB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif. Kill poster is on the button. 4 limpers to the kill who checks, I complete $4 more, BB folds. 6 to the flop for ~7SBs.

Flop comes: Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, giving me the second nut flush and a backdoor nut low draw. UTG, to my left, limps nearly every hand and is fairly crazy postflop. If I check, he will bet many weak hands (i.e AT, any two pair). If I bet, he might raise a similar range. His play has loosened up the table postflop - many players have been raising light to isolate postflop. If UTG doesn't bet, it will probably be checked through by AA/JJ/QQ, two-pair, etc. - any other bet will be the nuts with high frequency.

How should I feel about my hand (think: is it trash, should I protect, or should I try to maximize bets?). What is my best plan?

[Buzz]

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What is my best plan?

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Sy - You have a worthwhile hand to play. You probably shouldn't generally <font color="white">_</font>draw for a 2nd nut flush (unless you have something else good working for you) - but when you already <font color="white">_</font>have the 2nd nut flush, that's a different matter.

Based on your perceptive description of your opponents and how they are playing, I think if you don't bet, UTG will, and one of your other opponents very well may raise. And then you won't know where you stand. (You won't be able to tell if the raiser is raising with the nut flush or to isolate UTG). In addition, you don't want to take the chance of giving someone who would fold to a bet a free chance to draw out on you.

Thus checking does not seem a good option.

I don't think you want to throw this in (check/fold), because I think it's about two to one that none of your opponents here has the king high flush (and you have some protection from the board lowing).

Neither do you want to check/call here. Sometimes I advocate playing "defensively" (check/calling) - but not at this point in the hand. Maybe that will be your play on the turn or river, depending - but not here, not yet.

At any rate, I strongly dislike checking here. I think you have to toss in a bet to try to see where you stand and reason from there, depending on what happens. There are lots of possibilities and many of them seem very scary, but I think you need to show some courage here and bet.

Flopped 2nd nut flushes can be tough to play, but I think you're favored to win, even though you don't have the nuts. A bigger danger than encountering an opponent holding the king flush is the danger of the board pairing on the turn or river.

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is it trash

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Was your starting hand trash? Yes.

But whatever your starting hand was doesn't matter anymore. After the flop, what matters is how well your hand fits the board - and here you have a very decent, albeit non-nut, fit.

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should I protect, or should I try to maximize bets?

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You certainly don't want someone backing into a full house. I think the best way to protect against that is to bet.

The main danger of maximizing bets is that you may be up against the king flush. Thus going for a check-raise to maximize bets seems very unwise.

You're sort of like a cheetah out hunting in lion country. You kind of tippy toe around trying to ascertain if there are any lions in the immediate vicinity, but at the same time not wanting to give up a meal to a jackal.

Bet this flop and see if any lions roar.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

(Does Sy_or_bust mean you are Sy or getting to Sy is a goal? I'm assuming the former - no offense intended).

[Ironman]

Wow Sy...6 to a flop? Is this what waits for me at 4/8 half kill?

Anyway, here is how I view your hand. You came up with a great flop. It probably isn't going to get any better on the high side so I would lead out the betting.

If you get callers, then go into check/call mode unless this becomes a two way hand.

Dave

[sy_or_bust]

Buzz, you're a star. Thanks a lot. In the actual hand I bet, UTG raised, and all folded to me. I called, planning to raise the turn. The turn paired the ace, I check/called. The river bricked, and I bet/called (debatable. UTG checks behind sometimes, will raise some worse hands and never fold, and I wanted another bet in vs. his range). UTG showed AKxx for trips and I scooped.

It seems pretty clear that my flop play, trying to protect my hand from two-pair and cut down full house odds, saved the pot. Checkraising for value seemed infinitely riskier, especially since the board can pair and I will have no idea where I am in a large pot. As for preflop, I was in the mood for a marginal hand and kill-completing 23 w/ a suited T in a likely 7-way pot cannot be terrible.

Sy is me. It had another meaning too, but it's pretty irrelevant now.

Ironman: The UB games that run are usually soft. There's always a 2/4 going, sometimes w/ a kill, and at peak hours there is usually one larger game. This ranges from 3/6 to 10/20, and is not necessarily a soft game, though it often is - you have to investigate first.

[benwood]

You played it perfectly, imo. A point that has not been mentioned---If you bet, LAG raises, &amp; another player calls or raises, you will have a much better handle on the chance of this player having the nut flush than you would if you just checked &amp; LAG's bet got called or raised.

[DyessMan89]

Buzz put it nicley. You need to lead out on the flop, check/raising isnt an option, check/fold is too weak, and check/calling will leave you with many un-answered questions.