"never try to bluff a calling station"

[csuf_gambler]

indeed.

[Vee Quiva]

I have read stories on the internet about how Devil Fish can be a bit of a jerk, especially to the dealers.

Greg showed a lot of class yet again.

[TimTimSalabim]

Devilfish should have bet more on the end. Who's not calling there with a pair of 6's and a board full of rags?

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
Devilfish should have checked on the end. Who's not calling there after calling a turn bet and a board full of rags?

[/ QUOTE ]


FYP tee hee hee. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
It's obvious Devil Fish is a limey douche, especially to the dealers.

Greg showed a lot of class yet again.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[autobet]

Hasn't Develfish bluffed off his money at every final table we've seen him at?

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Devilfish should have checked on the end. Who's not calling there after calling a turn bet and a board full of rags?

[/ QUOTE ]


FYP tee hee hee. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Checking would have worked too. My point is, if you're going to bluff, bet enough that a marginal hand will fold. IIRC, it was a fairly small bet on the end relative to the pot.

[MicroBob]

"never bluff away your chips when everyone knows you are a habitual and over-aggressive bluffer."


I also get the impression that Ulliott is a bit of a douche.

[Thrahl]

He may be jerk but he has a point about Raymer.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
He may be jerk but he has a point about Raymer.

[/ QUOTE ]

[lonn19]

Last night's coverage did make Raymer look a little like a calling station, but the hand where he had 66 was a great call. He made a good read there. Devilfish was an absolute d**k at that table. And does anyone else notice those tacky two finger rings he has on?? What a douche!

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
Last night's coverage did make Raymer look a little like a calling station, but the hand where he had 66 was a great call. He made a good read there. Devilfish was an absolute d**k at that table. And does anyone else notice those tacky two finger rings he has on?? What a douche!

[/ QUOTE ]

All true, but this, combined with his penchant for calling ANY situation where he MIGHT be racing getting ok odds to do so, even for a BUNCH of his chips, lends itself further to the description. He made a couple REAL ugly calls in the 10 man TOC last year where he made his own pot odds and then called off a ton hoping not vs an overpair or dommed, but it seems there is something to be said for it.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
Last night's coverage did make Raymer look a little like a calling station,


[/ QUOTE ]


He read Devilfish correctly ... how does that make him a calling station?

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last night's coverage did make Raymer look a little like a calling station,


[/ QUOTE ]


He read Devilfish correctly ... how does that make him a calling station?

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]

The rest of the show made him look like one, ESPECIALLY the overbet allin call of Seif with top/mid.

[lonn19]

Why don't you read the rest of my post, Barron! I said that hand was a very good call by making a good read. There were one or two other hands that may make people think he is a calling station.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

If you induce as many bluffs as I do, you need to be prepared to make some weak looking calls.

I'm sorry, but until you've been at the table with me, or if there's ever a chance to see me in a poker telecast where they they show every hand, you really have no clue what you're talking about. I do a lot more calling than many of the top players. And I do a LOT less bluffing than most people think. When I make those calls with marginal hands, it is exactly the kind of hand they show on TV. Either I'm making a great call, or a horrible call, and there's very little in-between. As such, it is something that plays well on TV.

The funny thing is, when it comes to top players who have actually been at the table with me for significant periods of time, none of them seem to have anything particularly negative to say about my game. When it comes to those who have no significant experience playing with me, some of them (maybe many of them) seem to think I'm a very weak player. In a sense, I feel a certain kinship with Gus Hansen. Not saying I play like him at all, just that those who only know him from TV often consider him a luckbox with little talent, while those who sit at the table with him consider him an extremely tough and capable opponent, albeit a semi-maniacal one.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[JackWhite]

Greg, do you think Seif would have laid down that 2-4 to a reasonable SB raise (3X)? I have been arguing with friends about it. I am guessing he would have called a raise in that situation against you. I don't think there is anything you could have done to avoid losing a lot of chips on that hand.

[Daliman]

I think you may have gotten my inference wrong. You make alot of plays that are +EV as long as you are not dommed, which is obviously fine, but I personally feel that you dedicate too many chips in some of these allin preflop confrontations when you have a marginal hand at best. I'm not saying it's bad, and I'm DEFINITELY not saying what I do is better, or even that I've been in similar situations $$$-wise, but I do have extensive experience in 10 player left tourneys, and creating your own pot odds isn't a good strategy in them, especially when you are capable of outplaying your opponents, as you are. Why leave it up to luck when to can utilize your obvious skill?

Also, I only commented on what I saw and have seen, and said it as such. THe rest of your gamre I have little clue about, but I;m thinking you *may* have a little game.

[Xcalibur]

[ QUOTE ]
Greg, do you think Seif would have laid down that 2-4 to a reasonable SB raise (3X)?

[/ QUOTE ]

From reading Greg's post, I got a gist that he does not want Mark to lay down 2-4 even if he raised.

Greg, should you scan down here, in these sportsmanship devoid times, you really are a bastion of light. Last night, once again, I was quite proud of you. As Nick said to Gatsby, "You're better than the bunch of them!" Please keep playing and winning.

[A_C_Slater]

I'd just like to add that I'm happy ESPN showed this hand. At least it generates some discussion and the whole show wasn't just all in elimination coinflips. Finally some postflop play.

No doubt there is far more interesting hands that occured than this that they don't show, but at least it had some inkling of content.

[blumpkin22]

Very good points, Greg. That was an excellent call with the sixes, and indeed, the way the hand was played, I think you had to call the river; it was either going to be a great call or appear to be a huge mistake if he had happened to have a bigger pair.

As for people deeming you a "calling station," I think part of the reason is that you are never afraid to get your money in when it is a probable coin-flip situation. Do you think sometimes you should fold the small/medium pairs when faced with an all-in reraise? Or have the pot odds always dictated a call in those spots, even discounting the likelihood that they have an overpair?

Do you make fewer risks like these earlier in tournaments but more often at final tables, when the blinds are escalating and you want to build a big stack to give you a chance winning the tournament?

Looking forward to seeing you at more final tables.

Cheers,
blumpkin

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you read the rest of my post, Barron!


[/ QUOTE ]


I did ... I made a mistake when I went back up through the thread and quoted someone who made that comment (a few did before you).

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[RollaJ]

You should work on your attitude a bit, it wouldnt have been all too bad had you responded with something witty like [censored] off [censored] /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[jhall23]

I thought this was kinda odd after seeing it, based on what someone claimed in this thread.

Devilish on cash game players (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=tv&Number=3242213&Forum=f2 3&Words=%2Bcash%20%2Bgame%20%2Bdevilfish&Searchpag e=0&Limit=25&Main=3204497&Search=true&where=bodysu b&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderva l=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post3242213)


Perhaps it is just his doucheness coming out trying to tilt people or he had yet to play much with Raymer at that point.

[henrikrh]

If a callaing station wins the WSOP adn then comes 25th agaisnt teh biggest field in the history of poker, then you can find me down at your local casino doing the excact same thing. Devilfish is overrated, and one of the players that gets attention for their character (like Matasow, Hellmuth and Unabomber, though I'm not calling them overrated.) He's just mad that he got busted by an excellent call.

[Beavis68]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this was kinda odd after seeing it, based on what someone claimed in this thread.

Devilish on cash game players (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=tv&Number=3242213&Forum=f2 3&Words=%2Bcash%20%2Bgame%20%2Bdevilfish&Searchpag e=0&Limit=25&Main=3204497&Search=true&where=bodysu b&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderva l=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post3242213)


Perhaps it is just his doucheness coming out trying to tilt people or he had yet to play much with Raymer at that point.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is nothing that frustrates aggressive players more than someone that lets them bet off all their chips without ever raising them.

Greg called him with pocket sixes, making Devil look like an idiot who just got owned.

[AaronO]

Maybe it's a fine line, but I think there is a difference between being a calling station and being a player that induces bluffs. In this case what happens if Greg raises the turn? If Devilfish comes back over the top, Greg has to fold. If Devilfish folds, he makes no more money, yet puts more chips at risk.

LAG's always berate me for being a calling station because I am content to let them do the betting figuring I have the best hand. I think sometimes the best way to play overagressive players is to become a calling station. I tend to lose less and make more than trying to out LAG them. Then again I play micro limits so my game is in no way, shape, or form the game these guys play.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Fair enough.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Greg (FossilMan)]

In these spots, I simply try to judge the player's likely hands. Also, you have to give a weighted average to these things, as some players are more incined to slowplay AA for example. Thus, while their reraise might be AA, it is actually more likely to be 77 or some smaller pair, even though they are equally likely to be dealt each of these individual pairs preflop.

After estimating their weighted range of hands, I compare my equity against that range, and compare that equity to the pot odds. If I'm getting an overlay, I will almost certainly call. Sometimes, because of the tourney situation I'm in, I'll need more than a small overlay to call. I will almost never fold if I judge my overlay to be 15% or more.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

After estimating their weighted range of hands, I compare my equity against that range, and compare that equity to the pot odds. If I'm getting an overlay, I will almost certainly call. Sometimes, because of the tourney situation I'm in, I'll need more than a small overlay to call. I will almost never fold if I judge my overlay to be 15% or more.

[/ QUOTE ]


It would have been REALLY hilarious if you had said EXACTLY this after Devilfish called you a calling-station.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
It would have been REALLY hilarious if you had said EXACTLY this after Devilfish called you a calling-station.

[/ QUOTE ]

*

Devilfish: "So what did you estimate your overlay to be...?"

Greg: <scribbles in his notebook> "Oh, wait, it was 14.8% - I shouldn't've called, I guess..."

Devilfish: "Bloody hell, mate, bollocks!"

Greg: <scribbling more> "Oh, wait, no, I didn't carry it right - it was 15.02%" <shows his notebook to Devilfish>

Devilfish reads what Greg had scribbled in the notebook - it wasn't calculations at all! But rather: "What did the five fingers say to the face?"

Greg pimp-slaps him.

*

This episode of "Stupid Things You Think of While Waiting for Your Girlfriend to Get Done in the Bathroom" brought to you by...

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[Iconoclastic]

[ QUOTE ]
I will almost never fold if I judge my overlay to be 15% or more.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

15% or more? Is that early on in a MTT too? For example YOU would FOLD if you were 40% against Villain's range and you had to call 1k into a pot of 3.5 (28%)? Cuz that seems very picky, I mean I would only pass an edge up of <~3% early on before there are any $EV considerations

[Etaipo]

http://images.usatoday.com/money/_photos/2004/12/27/inside1-guinness.jpg

BRILLIANT!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I will almost never fold if I judge my overlay to be 15% or more.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

15% or more? Is that early on in a MTT too? For example YOU would FOLD if you were 40% against Villain's range and you had to call 1k into a pot of 3.5 (28%)? Cuz that seems very picky, I mean I would only pass an edge up of <~3% early on before there are any $EV considerations

[/ QUOTE ]

Way misreading the statement. Or it's not how I read it. He said he'd almost never fold if he had 15%. He certainly didn't say he's folding anything under 15%. I'd guess it just gets to be a tougher choice.

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I will almost never fold if I judge my overlay to be 15% or more.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

15% or more? Is that early on in a MTT too? For example YOU would FOLD if you were 40% against Villain's range and you had to call 1k into a pot of 3.5 (28%)? Cuz that seems very picky, I mean I would only pass an edge up of <~3% early on before there are any $EV considerations

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's considering that a 43% overlay, not 12%.

Raymer made a good call. Devilfish was just whining. If he didn't have a rep as a bluffing station Raymer may have backed off.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I will almost never fold if I judge my overlay to be 15% or more.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

15% or more? Is that early on in a MTT too? For example YOU would FOLD if you were 40% against Villain's range and you had to call 1k into a pot of 3.5 (28%)? Cuz that seems very picky, I mean I would only pass an edge up of <~3% early on before there are any $EV considerations

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's considering that a 43% overlay, not 12%.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are not understanding overlay. Also, he said he would "almost never fold if I judge my overlay to be 15% or more." That does not preclude him from doing the same thing with "only" 12%.

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I will almost never fold if I judge my overlay to be 15% or more.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

15% or more? Is that early on in a MTT too? For example YOU would FOLD if you were 40% against Villain's range and you had to call 1k into a pot of 3.5 (28%)? Cuz that seems very picky, I mean I would only pass an edge up of <~3% early on before there are any $EV considerations

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's considering that a 43% overlay, not 12%.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are not understanding overlay. Also, he said he would "almost never fold if I judge my overlay to be 15% or more." That does not preclude him from doing the same thing with "only" 12%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I'm using the word wrong, but it makes no sense to me to use it the other way. If I offer you a lottery where you have a 10% chance of winning $1000, but you only have to pay $50 for the ticket, do you consider that just a 5% overlay? I'd consider it to be 100%.

[grandgnu]

Raymer finished 1st out of almost 3,000 players, and in the top 30 out of almost 6,000 players. This was two years in a row, he isn't a calling station, he doesn't suck.

He didn't "get lucky" in both events back-to-back years against fields that large, he knows how to play. Devilfish came off as a whining "plick".

Don't bash the Unabomber though, he's fun to watch.

[ QUOTE ]
Devilfish is overrated, and one of the players that gets attention for their character (like Matasow, Hellmuth and Unabomber, though I'm not calling them overrated.) He's just mad that he got busted by an excellent call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points. Unabomber is also overrated, Matasow is not. The jury is still out on Hellmuth.

[TheBlueMonster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Last night's coverage did make Raymer look a little like a calling station, but the hand where he had 66 was a great call. He made a good read there. Devilfish was an absolute d**k at that table. And does anyone else notice those tacky two finger rings he has on?? What a douche!

[/ QUOTE ]

All true, but this, combined with his penchant for calling ANY situation where he MIGHT be racing getting ok odds to do so, even for a BUNCH of his chips, lends itself further to the description. He made a couple REAL ugly calls in the 10 man TOC last year where he made his own pot odds and then called off a ton hoping not vs an overpair or dommed, but it seems there is something to be said for it.

[/ QUOTE ]
again, ESPN converage is heavily edited so unless you know hand for hand what went on at the final table (while knowing each player's hole cards) than you really can't make that statement.
And would you call Mike Gracz a calling station for calling with a winning hand of Ace high?

Greg: I think having the image of a "calling station" might be pretty beneficial, huh? They'll think twice before trying to bluff you!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[andyfox]

So the guy won the World Series main event in 2004 and his opponent feels the necessity of making a snide remark when he loses a pot to him te next year. What a jerk.

The poker world had/has a classy champion in Mr. Raymer.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
You make alot of plays that are +EV as long as you are not dommed, which is obviously fine, but I personally feel that you dedicate too many chips in some of these allin preflop confrontations when you have a marginal hand at best. I'm not saying it's bad, and I'm DEFINITELY not saying what I do is better, or even that I've been in similar situations $$$-wise, but I do have extensive experience in 10 player left tourneys, and creating your own pot odds isn't a good strategy in them, especially when you are capable of outplaying your opponents, as you are. Why leave it up to luck when to can utilize your obvious skill?

[/ QUOTE ]If a player feels that Greg is the kind of player who will call a lot, he is less likely to be bullied. The players Greg is usually seen playing against on TV are almost always aggressive and can make moves with anything from any position. If those players see Raymer on their left, someone they deem as a "calling station" (or, to be less rude about the terminology, someone who will defend himself) they are probably going to not get out of line as much. Not only does this have a direct impact but an indirect one - take a player out of his comfort zone and he will probably not play at 100%. All of this is very +EV, IMHO, allowing Greg to steal and defend and generally run a table even without a massive chip lead (although that obviously helps). If Greg waited for better opportunities, this aspect of his game would be removed.

I feel that this is a very important aspect of his game, if not the most important aspect of his game. He is very tough to bully and he can therefore be a bully himself because Greg can steal easier.

Please note that I never played with him and this is just a hunch.